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I was wondering, if you had a flush draw or open ended straight draw the usual tactic is to try and get as much money out of opponents even before you get you desired card. Wat i wanted to nkow was, wat if the turn comes and its not wat you was hoping for, there is one unseen community card left to be drawn, how would you change you betting on the next round of betting?
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Posts: 134 | From: Manchester | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged |
JADW27
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Member # 4207
Rate Member posted 07-06-2004 05:17 PM
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Where did you hear that? If you are on a draw you want to see cards for free, not get people's (and, by extension, your) money in the pot. Flush draws will only complete one in three times. You want to bet with made hands and see draws cheaply. The exception is the semi-bluff, but even then you're betting to win the pot, not to get more money into it.
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Posts: 119 | From: Durham, NC | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
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Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 07-06-2004 05:29 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by JADW27:
Where did you hear that? If you are on a draw you want to see cards for free, not get people's (and, by extension, your) money in the pot. Flush draws will only complete one in three times. You want to bet with made hands and see draws cheaply. The exception is the semi-bluff, but even then you're betting to win the pot, not to get more money into it.
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LMAO. You always want to fill the pot up on flush and straight draws with 2 or more callers.
Also, I'm sure he is talking about limit not NL.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
RoCKo
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Member # 3146
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posted 07-06-2004 05:38 PM
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Yes, the semi bluff after the flop. If you are in late position and have at least 3 callers in front of you.... then you could raise. In the low limits, almost always will the callers put in the extra bet to call your raise.
If the turn hits you... good, you got their money. Might not get much action after the 3rd suit hits the board.
If your card does not come... then, most of the time it will be checked to you... at which time you can check also for the free card.
Lee Jones book explains this semi bluff tactic.
Also, by raising after the flop... it may cause others read on you to be something other than what it is. Although I believe this is a tactic used alot.
I believe the key to this is having many callers before you and you in very late position.
RoCKo
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Posts: 740 | From: Oregon | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
JohnD
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Member # 4266
Rate Member posted 07-06-2004 10:27 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by stocktrader23:
LMAO. You always want to fill the pot up on flush and straight draws with 2 or more callers.
Also, I'm sure he is talking about limit not NL.
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Be sure to listen to him. His hobby is money! He makes 10K a week daytrading, 8K a week in adult entertainment and another 10K a month playing online poker.
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Posts: 16 | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
JeanieJ
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posted 07-07-2004 03:56 AM
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quote:
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I was wondering, if you had a flush draw or open ended straight draw the usual tactic is to try and get as much money out of opponents
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Wrong, you play like this and you WILL be a losing player. You want to see your draws for cheap. Drawing hands, while they will make you money, that doesn't mean they are always a good thing. When I flop a draw (open ended straight, or 4 to a flush) then I usually bet out, to get an extra bet in. Then when (if) I'm raised I just call. Something you should consider too, when you flop a draw, check raise to buy a free card on the turn. You will need to have proper position for this move. Or it wont work and you'll end up paying double for your draws. If you play mid-limit hold em' then this move should work well for you. I'm not sure how it works in NL but I'm sure it isn't the same. Assuming you get that free card on the turn, then you wont have to worry about calling a bet until the river. By then you know if you've made your hand or not. This way you've made it cheaper and get to see more cards then check-calling.
Hope this helps a bit.
Jeanie
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Posts: 3553 | From: xo*Kisses*xo@PokerStars | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 07-07-2004 04:29 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by JeanieJ:
quote:
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I was wondering, if you had a flush draw or open ended straight draw the usual tactic is to try and get as much money out of opponents
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Wrong, you play like this and you WILL be a losing player. You want to see your draws for cheap. Drawing hands, while they will make you money, that doesn't mean they are always a good thing. When I flop a draw (open ended straight, or 4 to a flush) then I usually bet out, to get an extra bet in. Then when (if) I'm raised I just call. Something you should consider too, when you flop a draw, check raise to buy a free card on the turn. You will need to have proper position for this move. Or it wont work and you'll end up paying double for your draws. If you play mid-limit hold em' then this move should work well for you. I'm not sure how it works in NL but I'm sure it isn't the same. Assuming you get that free card on the turn, then you wont have to worry about calling a bet until the river. By then you know if you've made your hand or not. This way you've made it cheaper and get to see more cards then check-calling.
Hope this helps a bit.
Jeanie
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Your logic is flawed here. If you flop a straight or flush draw without anything scary on the board (flush when you are going for a straight or a board pair) you want as much money going in the pot as possible. 2 Callers put you right around even and any others are bonus money. When you hold 4 to the flush or straight and 2 overcards that may be good if they hit 2 callers put you in the positive expectation.
The key is to only do this when you will have the nut straight and / or near nut flush if it does in fact hit.
Why in the world would you want to see your draws cheaply when every bet going into the pot is a positive for you? It makes no sense whatsoever unless you are playing "not to lose" poker instead of playing to win.
[ 07-07-2004, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: stocktrader23 ]
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Lt2210
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Rate Member posted 07-07-2004 04:44 AM
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"Every bet going into the pot is a positive for you" ?????? And you're on a draw???? Think that through for a second....especially in NL. I can see the semi-bluff bet in the right position, or if you have something other then the draw...like maybe top or second pair.
Following the above quote, then every raise and re-raise is exactly what you want???
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Posts: 478 | From: OH | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 07-07-2004 04:49 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Lt2210:
"Every bet going into the pot is a positive for you" ?????? And you're on a draw???? Think that through for a second....especially in NL. I can see the semi-bluff bet in the right position, or if you have something other then the draw...like maybe top or second pair.
Following the above quote, then every raise and re-raise is exactly what you want???
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Nothing to do with NL. Although the situation comes up where it's a positive but NL is a different breed of animal.
Edit: There are actually a ton of situations that this holds true in NL but the discussion would be huge. I assumed she was speaking of limit though since that is what she plays primarily.
[ 07-07-2004, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: stocktrader23 ]
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Lt2210
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Member # 2842
Rate Member posted 07-07-2004 04:51 AM
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Ok. But, are you saying that you welcome capped betting after the flop and turn while you're on your draw? If so, is it "the more the merrier?"
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Posts: 478 | From: OH | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 07-07-2004 04:53 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Lt2210:
Ok. But, are you saying that you welcome capped betting after the flop and turn while you're on your draw? If so, is it "the more the merrier?"
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Yes and yes. As long as your hand has a great chance of winning if / when you do hit. I could explain if you want but it's really the most obvious way to play those hands.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
JeanieJ
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posted 07-07-2004 04:54 AM
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Sorry but I don't want a cap on all streets on a draw. This isn't going to make you money. While this may work for you, in the long run it wont work for my style of play. I don't want all the money possible in the pot because I have a good draw. I've had 15+ outs before and gotten nothing, by your thinking I'd lose big if I didn't hit my draw. The point is to make money when you draw, not lose it.
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Posts: 3553 | From: xo*Kisses*xo@PokerStars | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
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Rate Member posted 07-07-2004 05:03 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by JeanieJ:
Sorry bu
t I don't want a cap on all streets on a draw. This isn't going to make you money. While this may work for you, in the long run it wont work for my style of play. I don't want all the money possible in the pot because I have a good draw. I've had 15+ outs before and gotten nothing, by your thinking I'd lose big if I didn't hit my draw. The point is to make money when you draw, not lose it.
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If the point is to make money then your logic is definately flawed. You are thinking about the short term (1 hand) and I am talking about long term.
If you have 15 outs or a 54% chance of hitting a straight or flush you should be raising them to death. Whether or not your draw hits on that 1 hand is irrelevent. Since you play for a living I thought you would know this before anyone.
54% chance even heads up you are making a profit most times by capping flop and turn assuming you should win if one of your draw hits. 2 or more in the pot should be an automatic cap.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
JeanieJ
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posted 07-07-2004 05:09 AM
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quote:
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54% chance even heads up you are making a profit most times by capping flop and turn assuming you should win if one of your draw hits. 2 or more in the pot should be an automatic cap.
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A coin flip is not something I am willing to put a lot of money into. I'd rather be absolutly sure I have the best hand then take the chance I'd lose a good deal of money at once. It isn't an automatic cap for me. It probably never will be.
Something you should remember, I'm a limit player and I don't tend to throw my money in unless I know I have the best hand. When and IF i have the best hand is when I make my move. I don't have the Go all In when you hit a draw, in me. It just doesn't run that way in my mind. My type of play works well for me. I'm sure yours works for you. Just a difference in style is all.
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Posts: 3553 | From: xo*Kisses*xo@PokerStars | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
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Rate Member posted 07-07-2004 05:19 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by JeanieJ:
quote:
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54% chance even heads up you are making a profit most times by capping flop and turn assuming you should win if one of your draw hits. 2 or more in the pot should be an automatic cap.
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A coin flip is not something I am willing to put a lot of money into. I'd rather be absolutly sure I have the best hand then take the chance I'd lose a good deal of money at once. It isn't an automatic cap for me. It probably never will be.
Something you should remember, I'm a limit player and I don't tend to throw my money in unless I know I have the best hand. When and IF i have the best hand is when I make my move. I don't have the Go all In when you hit a draw, in me. It just doesn't run that way in my mind. My type of play works well for me. I'm sure yours works for you. Just a difference in style is all.
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I'm speaking of limit play. You are talking about a coin flip but that isn't the case at all. It's like flipping a loaded coin for you. You have a 54.4% chance of hitting so 2 callers give you ample reason for the cap. Playing for a living that is a giant hole in your game. I mean that as respectfully as you can. Yes you can swing a large chunk of cash at one time but that's what a bankroll is for. I would say playing draws correctly is one of the most important parts of holdem.
Think of it like this. If you cap 4 times, each with 2 callers you are putting around $100 in the pot. You will win on average just over 2 of those 4 hands in the long run. For the sake of being easy lets say you win 2 out of 4 overall.
Now you've bet $100 on a draw 4 times (assuming it didn't hit until river) for a total of $400 invested. Winning 2 of those pots yields you $600 for a $200 profit. That's with just 2 callers.
Another benefit to betting on the come is they don't always put you on the flush or straight when it hits and will be happy to cap their 2 pairs and sets with you on the river.
Again, with no disrespect intended as I am sure you win but this is a huge deal in limit poker. If you aren't raising when the pot odds tell you to do so you are missing out on a huge chunk of income.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
JeanieJ
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posted 07-07-2004 05:32 AM
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This may be one of those differences between a tight and an aggressive player. While I can see your point, I can't see myself playing like that. It's just not my type of play. While it MAY be correct to cap with a draw to you, It doesn't feel right to me. If it is a flaw, so be it.
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Posts: 3553 | From: xo*Kisses*xo@PokerStars | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
feverpa
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Member # 3217
Rate Member posted 07-07-2004 10:36 AM
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I play no limit ring games... short handed tables... and I find that the aggressive style of play (all the time, including these hands) pays off...
an aggressive "action" style will get you action more often when you have big hands...
it also allows you the opportunity to induce bluffs in these situations...
was dealt K-5 suited (clubs) and called from the small blind (two other callers) the flop came Q-X-X with two clubs... I bet out strong (nearly pot sized bet) and got one caller...
when the Ace of clubs fell on the turn... I checked... now, whether or not the guy had a hand, or was also drawing to the flush... either way he thinks he's got me beat... or scared of the flush... so he bets... and I call...
then the risky part... on the river, I check again... he goes all in... and is broke when I call....
this is just an example of another reason to bet out at a strong draw... it can hide the fact that you're drawing...
being aggressive, and most of the time betting based on the speculation that the other guy didn't hit his hand either... can win you a ton of small pots... and pay for the big ones...
but I understand that this is a NL strategy only...
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Posts: 1201 | From: sitting next to Jesus in the Fridge | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
JADW27
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Member # 4207
Rate Member posted 07-07-2004 02:20 PM
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It all depends on who you're playing against. Buying the free card with a raise on the flop works well, but only if you're fairly certain no one will bet the turn because they fear you. It also works MUCH better in late position than it does with a check-raise in early or middle position. It is correct money-wise to get a lot of money in when there's 3 or more players in the pot, but that's only true if you know they'll call you. If they fold and you're heads up on the turn and might not get the right pot odds for a call, much less another bet or raise. If there's 9 players in the pot who all every bet, then a draw is a significant winner, but if you're against 2 or 3, especially ones who are smart enough to fold to a raise or check-raise when they have nothing, this play will usually screw you over on the post-turn bet.
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Posts: 119 | From: Durham, NC | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
lou22
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posted 07-07-2004 06:11 PM
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Stockholder is exactly right on this. It's not just agressive play, it's correct play with a positive EV. Basically all he's saying is to pump the pot when it is a EV+ proposition. If you are asking less than 2:1 on your draw and expect that for every dollar you put in, at least 2 other players will put in a dollar as well, you want to raise every chance you can get. I also agree with stock that this is a very fundamental part of limit holdem.
The benefits of this are many:
1) it could take the pot down with a semi-bluff bet on the turn
2) it could buy a free card if you miss the turn and it gets checked around to you
3) it builds the pot up enough to make money in the long run when you hit
4) when you raise in late position with a big hand, it will get you more action on future betting rounds if everyone knows you raise your draws.
This isn't a semi-bluff or an action craving gamble. Your intention is not to get other players to fold on the flop when you make this bet. It is mainly just to build a pot in case you hit your draw. And I am specifically referring to bets on the FLOP with your strong draws. On the turn you need twice as many players to call your bet, or all the players to fold a fraction of the time, for it to be a EV+ play. That is often not available.
T
his is something that I honestly believe every limit player should know. Jeanie I strongly suggest you at the very least explore this idea further. It could really add an some profit to your game.
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Posts: 682 | From: Minneapolis | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
Benzine
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posted 07-07-2004 06:57 PM
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Stocktrader and lou22 make some very crucial points for maximizing your big draws in loose holdem games. Maximizing these draws could easily swing you from 2 BB/100 to 3-3.5+ BB/100. This could be the difference between winning and CRUSHING your game.
A 4-flush draw (with the slim exception when you're drawing dead to someone with higher cards of the same suit) has about 36% equity of the pot on the flop. A openend straight draw to the nuts has about a 30% equity in the pot. If you're contributing less than 36% or 30%, respectively, to the pot, then you should happily put in as many bets as you can get people to call on the flop! You're making theoretical money on every bet that goes into that pot.
If you miss the turn, then your equity drops to about 20% with the 4-flush and about 16-17% with the OESD.
Maximize your big draws. It will increase your variance but it will also greatly increase your profitibality. In loose games with lots of callers, I'd rather flop a big draw than something like TP/TK or bottom two pair.
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Hello Guys
I will try to make this as short as possible. Right now i work full time in retail and make about 25,000 a year not to much. I have been playing poker online and at Atlantic City for about 2 years now.
I have convinced my wife finally that i want to try and do it and make a living off it. Thinking as i first start i will keep my job until the time comes if the time comes that i feel i can make 25,000 or more a year playing cards.
Now my question is since i have never tried it for a living. Starting out like i will be starting slow
What is the best way to do this. I would have to on average make 1000 dollars a month to equal out to what i make at work after taxes and all the other crap they take out
Am i better off starting with small tournaments like 20 + 2 or smaller? Or am i better of going into just open games like 5/10 or 10/20 games?
What is the best way to start
I am sure that the bigger games the more money i will make but at first i gotta get in a routine cause bills and such come first
So what would someone recommend as the best way to go about doing this open games or tournaments
Thanks Jim
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Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
rforman
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posted 07-01-2004 05:07 PM
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If you don't mind me asking a few questions, I can help ya.
1. What is your experience...limits, bb/hr, how long have you been playing?
2. What is your current bankroll....how much money do you have set aside strictly for poker.
3. How many hours do you intend to play while still working...how many hours when you are going to play poker only?
Answer these and I'll tell ya what I can.
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Posts: 2241 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
JimsAces
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Member # 4209
Rate Member posted 07-01-2004 05:13 PM
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If you don't mind me asking a few questions, I can help ya.
1. What is your experience...limits, bb/hr, how long have you been playing?
Answer--I have been playing for about 3 years now on and off. The highest limit table i have ever played was 10/20 and tournaments like 30 dollar entry fee and below. And twice i played in live tournaments (not online) w
ith like 150 dollar entry
2. What is your current bankroll....how much money do you have set aside strictly for poker.
Answer--Well right now since i am experimenting i have 200 dollars in my poker party accoubnt. Which i was told if i am good enough and do it right that should be fine
3. How many hours do you intend to play while still working...how many hours when you are going to play poker only?
Answer--While working 20 hours. If not working 40-50
Answer these and I'll tell ya what I can.
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Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
NiHeraNeSsu
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posted 07-01-2004 05:31 PM
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I will try to help also. Rforman's questions are essential but I would ask couple of more ones:
1. What max level you currently play online and in Athlantic ?
2. What are your results for 2 years of playing broken down by level ?
3. Are your results for second year significantly better than for first ? If yes - what they are ?
I do not need exact numbers of course - just rough estimation.
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Posts: 441 | From: Brooklyn,NY,US | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
JimsAces
Junior Member
Member # 4209
Rate Member posted 07-01-2004 05:38 PM
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I will try to help also. Rforman's questions are essential but I would ask couple of more ones:
1. What max level you currently play online and in Athlantic ?
Answer--We should focue more online cause i dont live anymor close to A.C and would be doing this at Party Poker.com . I play online mostly 5/10 as when you play 2/4 people stay in with anything and it is a waste of time. And for tournaments well i play in 20 or 30 dollars ones and a 5 dollar one every morning at 10:30 am since i work nights. I have done ok in them some better then others i have not won any yet. However i have won many many of the sit and go's like the 5 and 10 dollar ones but with only 9 people there is not much money to be wonin those
2. What are your results for 2 years of playing broken down by level ?
Ok Well
2/4--Ok i guess hard to say cause people play all kinds of crap
5/10 I would say average you have your good days and bad
Tournaments
The sit and go's i am very good at but not much money in them
Other tournaments are same have good and bad ones. Nver won a tournament with over 400 otr more people in it but i have about 5 top 30 finishes this year
3. Are your results for second year significantly better than for first ? If yes - what they are ?
I do not need exact numbers of course - just rough estimation.
I would say ofcourse i got better in year two then year one
for example year one i never make it in top 100 in any tournamets year 2 i make top 30 5 times already
See the question i asked because even in 20 dollar or 30 dollar tournaments you are not making atleast 500 dollars unless your in top 5. And what are the odds i finish in top atleast once every other week
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Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
lou22
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posted 07-01-2004 05:39 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by JimsAces:
I would have to on average make 1000 dollars a month to equal out to what i make at work after taxes and all the other crap they take out
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rforman will definitely have more insight into your topic than I will...but it sounds like you're not planning on paying taxes on your winnings and that's pretty risky. There's a difference between if you win a little side money
and don't report it vs. if your entire income is based on poker winnings. That's not something I would want to mess around with. And you still might want to figure in health insurance and any other side benefits your job might have offered.
Point being that a profit of $1000 per month seems incredibly low. It doesn't seem like that would be very difficult at all to achieve, but IMO if you're going to be playing 5/10 or 10/20 for 40-50 hours per week, you should be making a lot more than that if you're consistently beating those games.
Best of luck to you. Let us know how it goes.
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Posts: 682 | From: Minneapolis | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
JimsAces
Junior Member
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Rate Member posted 07-01-2004 05:42 PM
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well that is why i am waiting to here what they say cause i am torn between open games and tournaments
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Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
rforman
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posted 07-01-2004 05:42 PM
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I think it may be possible to build your way up, starting with $200, but you would have a LONG way to go. If we assume that you should have at least 200 big bets for a bankroll...this means that you should not be playing higher than .50/1 and if you can do really well at 2-3 tables....you may make slightly more than minimum wage.
Most poker vetrans will tell you that for LIVE poker, you really can't make much of a living unless you play 10-20 or higher. If you make 1BB/hr in 10-20 at 40hrs/week then you would average $3200/month....almost 40,000/year. People do grind it out at lower limits....but it aint easy.
I don't know whether you intend to play live or online, and as for online, I can't offer much advice or experience as I play 99% live.
Also consider that if you are going to be playing to pay the bills, you will be needing to withdraw money regularly from your poker account....making it difficult to build a proper bankroll that would allow you to step up in limits.
Personally, I would recommend trying to put aside about $5000 for poker and play a mix of 5-10 and 10-20.
Most importantly, keep accurate records so you know exactly what to expect and can determine where you are most profitable. Again, all this is under the assumption that you are +EV in the first place.....and with that said, realize that you may not be +EV for periods of time when you step up in limits....until you learn to beat that limit.
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Posts: 2241 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
rforman
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posted 07-01-2004 05:55 PM
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One other thing I want to add:
I recently had a conversation about swings with someone who has played professionally for the last 5 years or so. I was asking because I have had thoughts recently about playing for a living.
I know that, assuming nothing crazy happens, that I should make somewhere in the $80,000 - $120,000/yr range in the game I play in. I do have the bankroll required to do this...but after talking to this friend, I am still leary about the idea for right now.
Basically, the swings in poker can be very tough to handle, especially when you are paying the bills from your bankroll. He told me his worst swing was about -30,000 in 6 months..... but the scariest part about this was that he was up in poker for that period. His expenses really tore into his bankroll. I think there may be some money management issues on his end, but I do know that a swing like that would ceraintly not be easy for me to handle.
I still think about playing for a living....but I think the safest way to do it is when you have your expenses set aside for a decent period of time and do not have to worry about depleting your bankroll.
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Posts: 2241 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
NiHeraNeSsu
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posted 07-01-2004 07:01 PM
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I totally agree with Rforman. Want to add couple of things however. I will not refer anything well written in the books and just something from my experience - you are welcome to diregard if it does not fit you.
1. Depending on your abil
ity to stop playing if lose some significant amount. If you feel you are
hard to stop on cold run, like by the way most of us are(including myself), your bankroll should be protected so keep most of it out of PP and elaborate a system that would prevent you to buy in more than some amount per a day. Keep not more than 20% of your bankroll on site and cash out any extra.
2. Make notes on players. Try to play the table where one (at least) of "bad player" plays.
3. Never quit a sesion being on a rush unless cannot physically play longer. Quit only after feel your rush gone when for example you lost 2 pots in a row which started as a favorite.
4. Never show your cards after successfull bluff
unless know for sure that it was your last bluff in this session.
5. Do not allow people tease on you - if someone send you abusing messages - either do not respond at all (the best) or reply "f.. you". Do not start
polemick with them - it will cause you play wrong against the person you're verbally fighting with.
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Posts: 441 | From: Brooklyn,NY,US | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
JimsAces
Junior Member
Member # 4209
Rate Member posted 07-01-2004 07:08 PM
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the only concern i have with doing the .50/$1 table to start
Is i feel not always the best players wins cause everyone will be in every hand and stay in till the end when you are talking about that little amount of money
What do you think of that?
Also are you saying i should stay away from tournaments?
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Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
JeanieJ
Member
Member # 3411
Member Rated:
posted 07-01-2004 07:15 PM
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Tournaments are a good way to make a living. This is assuming you have the time. The higher the tournaments the easier it will be for you to play poker for a living (meaning tournaments). A 30$ tournament wont have as big a win as a 100 dollar one will. If the site you play at has lots of action you'd want to play the higher ones to make the most you can.
I've found out personally that I can't make enough money from tournaments to cover things. I play both and it makes for a steady income. If you have the bankroll and the skill I suggust you move up between 3/6 and 15/30. The higher if you can afford this kind of jump.
I hope things go well for you. Make sure you remember your wife. It's a hard living and you'll need all the support you can get. Don't let the hard times get to you. One week you'll loose a few grand and question your skills, the next week you get right back up and double what you lost. I hope you can handle the swings emotionally as well as physically.
Best of luck,
jeanie
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Posts: 3553 | From: xo*Kisses*xo@PokerStars | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
rforman
Member
Member # 2420
Member Rated:
posted 07-01-2004 07:16 PM
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I do agree that you will see that kind of play at that level.
However I am also saying that if you want to really play poker for a living...you need sufficient bankroll for the limits you play.....or you need to play limits sufficient enough not to break your bankroll. If your bankroll is 200 and you are playing 5-10, you have about a 99% chance of going broke, even if you are the best player in the world. Read some of PokerAngels articles about bankroll and his discussion of "risk of ruin".
I can not answer your question about tourney's either...if you have a sufficient bankroll to play them...and will make money over time in them...then sure.
I am going to be brutally honest with you here, because I do have your best interests in mind here....you really need to have a better answer than "I do ok" or "some good some bad" to how you do in games. You really should not consider playing poker for a living unless you have a couple of years of DOCUMENTED success. You may want to invest in something like Pokertracker which will analyize your online results for you and give you a much better estimation of what you are capable of doing.
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Posts: 2241 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
JimsAces
Junior Member
Member # 4209
Rate Member posted 07-01-2004 07:42 PM
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pokertracker?
please tell me more
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Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
rforman
Member
Member # 2420
Member Rated:
posted 07-01-2004 08:11 PM
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I don't own it since I don't play online...but I think you can go to
www.pokertracker.com
to learn more.
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Posts: 2241 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
Sentinel
Junior Member
Member # 3815
Rate Member posted 07-01-2004 09:36 PM
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Jim,
I'm just going to come out and say it: You shouldn't quit your day job to try to make a living playing online poker. Invest your $5000 bankroll in a technical education or something and play poker on the side. Your odds are much better.
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Posts: 21 | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
JeanieJ
Member
Member # 3411
Member Rated:
posted 07-01-2004 09:43 PM
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quote:
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I'm just going to come out and say it: You shouldn't quit your day job to try to make a living playing online poker. Invest your $5000 bankroll in a technical education or something and play poker on the side. Your odds are much better
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While that isn't very nice, it is the truth. There are so many people who try and make it as a pro, and fail. They lose everything. Make sure you know you can make it and you have something to fall back on. Good point made.
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Posts: 3553 | From: xo*Kisses*xo@PokerStars | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
JimsAces
Junior Member
Member # 4209
Rate Member posted 07-01-2004 10:09 PM
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Well obviously gfrom my posts i am looking to start slow.
I mean it is not like i said i plan on taking my whole bank account and going for it
Plus i have enough faith in my ability that i sit back and watch some of these guys on the poker tour always at the final table make all this money from 40 or 100 dollar satelites so why not me?
Not like i just started playing
But i am also smart enough to know to take it low
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Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
wasntme
Member
Member # 2436
Member Rated:
posted 07-01-2004 10:53 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by JimsAces:
Well obviously gfrom my posts i am looking to start slow.
I mean it is not like i said i plan on taking my whole bank account and going for it
Plus i have enough fa
ith in my ability that i sit back and watch some of these guys on the poker tour always at the final table make all this money from 40 or 100 dollar satelites so why not me?
Not like i just started playing
But i am also smart enough to know to take it low
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Your probably also beleive "any two cards can win", while its true, this style of thinking can lead to lots of money lost.
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Posts: 430 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
JimsAces
Junior Member
Member # 4209
Rate Member posted 07-01-2004 10:56 PM
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So basiclly you are saying i am not good enough to win but you are right?
Well that would be like any other poker player
And i am sure half of the greats today were all told the thing at one time by someone as it is not exactly the thing your wife wants to hear when you tell here what you want to do for a living
Oh i want to play poker
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Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
GarySJFL
Member
Member # 1342
Member Rated:
posted 07-02-2004 12:01 AM
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Here's what I did to address the question of my professional readiness:
1. Play, and collect raw data on your results for a long period of time. Record time played, stake level, and money started/ended with. Record at least 500 hours of data.
2. Determine your win rate and standard deviation from the data collected in #1.
3. Determine how big your bankroll needs to be to sustain swings, given your win rate and standard deviation. PokerAngel has an excellent article at this site on how to do this.
4. Determine what "hourly wage" you want to pay yourself. Needless to say, it must be lower than your win rate.
5. Recalculate your bankroll, based on the removal of money from the system. In other words if your win rate is $20 an hour and you want to pay yourself $15 an hour, recalculate your bankroll based on a win rate of $5 an hour. This will tell you how big a bankroll you need to pay yourself a wage AND sustain downswings.
By now, you should have an idea as to whether or not you're "solvent". By that I mean, can you pay yourself a livable wage, and sustain your bankroll.
If so, you then need to ask yourself questions like, can I psychologically deal with downswings? How much "vacation time" do I need to budget for? If I'm quitting my job to play poker, what is the value of the benefits I'm giving up and will my playing wage adequately replace those?
I found it to be a tall order.
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Posts: 1941 | From: south Florida | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |
gotdanutz
Junior Member
Member # 2298
Rate Member posted 07-02-2004 12:58 AM
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Heres my prediction: In 3 months u will be not only broke and on the virge of a divorce but 30 pounds fatter. Im not trying to be a smart azz, this is exactly what happened to me. needles to say Im back to work and still married. But sometimes you gotta learn from experiences, so good luck.
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Posts: 24 | Registered: Oct 2003 | IP: Logged |
NiHeraNeSsu
Member
Member # 1738
Member Rated:
posted 07-02-2004 02:07 AM
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quote:
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Heres my prediction: In 3 months u will be not only broke and on the virge of a divorce but 30 pounds fatter. Im not trying to be a smart azz, this is exactly what happened to me. needles to say Im back to work and still married. But sometimes you gotta learn from experiences, so good luck
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---------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry that you went thru this experience but it does not mean at all that same will happen with others. But actually I'm going to talk about something else. Here it is:
Being poker pro or even semipro is a big challenge, I do not have an exact statistick but approximation is: if you randomly take 8 poker players only one of them is a winner while 3 others lose as much as he wins and 4 rest lose as much as sites and casinos rake. So when a newcomer states that he is sure he will make a living by playing his statement has nothing under it. But at the same time one of each 8 newcomers will do it - we all were newcomers a while ago.
The combination of many different things makes a winner from a player and only excellent, extraordinary combination of those things makes the champions. And those things are not only analytical mentality and good memory, there is a lot of more features that winner needs to have to be a winner. But one feature is not something that you may inherit or something that nature gifted you - and this feature is the most important one in whole combination, this feature is obtained only by long and long time spent while you play - this is what we call experience.
While you do not have sufficient experience playing on different levels against different people of all playing styles you will not reach the goal - you will not be a winner like you will not be professional in any profession until work in a field for years.
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Posts: 441 | From: Brooklyn,NY,US | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
oldman_ii
Member
Member # 4011
Rate Member posted 07-02-2004 03:47 AM
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I'm probably old enough to be your father, so I'll talk to you as if you were my son.
Since you should be heavily versed in odds and statistics, do you know the number of sucessful professional gamblers vs the unsucessful ones? My money would be that your chances are not good. Just like musicians and actors, the number of really good ones is far outnumbered by the losers.
Next, what about taxes, health insurance, and retirement? Sooner or later you're going to have to pay the IRS. They will find out, and come after you if you're making a living. And they usually wait until it's worth it for them to do so, and it's gonna be painful. A thousand a month is a pittance.
Besides, if you spend the next 20 years at a poker table, you're probably gonna look like Tomer Benvinisti.
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Posts: 89 | From: washtucna | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged |
evenmoney
Member
Member # 1091
Member Rated:
posted 07-02-2004 03:53 AM
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Hey,
First of all, you want to track your exact results. There is a website called pokercharts.com where you can feed in your sessions and it will compute your winrate on the different levels. Your results actually should be more than you earn at your job since you have to pay 100% of your social security taxes which are 15.3%. You can then file as a business and deduct home office, internet, computer, books, ect. Some people don't claim much of their poker income, but online does leave a paper trail. If you make 40k at poker and you claim 5k, you are just asking for an audit. Just claim 30k and write down you blew 10k on a night you got drunk and played high stakes roulette.
You simply play the game you do the best at. If I had to do it again, I would play nothing but ten man no-limit tourneys. The main reason is the low variance. You only need about 30 buy-ins and a good player can make around 40% return or about 12 bucks profit per 30+3. In limit, you might have a 200 big bet downturn..like 4k in 10-20, but you could lose twenty 50+5's in a row and be stuck only 1100. The other factor is the rake. If you play in a 5-10 online, the rake is around 100 bucks per hour. A 30+3 tourney only cost the table 30. In other words, your opponents don't need to make as many mistakes to be profitable.
I would also tell you to keep the same job, but work it part-time, even if you earn much more at poker. The reason is that most players who try to play full time, even ones who have significant hours in making more than they make at their jobs, fail or find the life far more stressfull than they had imagined. At most jobs, you can goof off a bit or have a bad day and you still get paid. This is not true in poker. You should also use the time leading up to your making the leap to pay off as much debt as possible. I'm working on paying off my house. Angel said that he wanted to play full time so badly that his first year he lowered his yearly living expenses to less than most of us consume in a single month. He also said that he made less than 10k his first year, but since it paid for his nut, he succeeded. I found that post inspirational. Not because of how much Angel makes these days, but because of his unstoppable, titanic determination to hang tough when most other people would have thrown in the towel.
I jokingly tell coworkers that my worst day at poker is better than my best day at work, but that's not really true. You will occasionally be blindsided by some variance that will make digging ditches in the heat and humidity seem like a picnic in the park. That's why having your wife behind you is the so vital. I made several posts in the live section describing the variance you can expect playing fulltime online. I stopped because it started to get repetitive and also because I had to put in some extra hours to salvage June...(for a while it looked like I would have my first losing month since last July.)
Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.
Heres my prediction: In 3 months u will be not only broke and on the virge of a divorce but 30 pounds fatter. Im not trying to be a smart azz, this is exactly what happened to me. needles to say Im back to work and still married. But sometimes you gotta learn from experiences, so good luck.
LOL. That's about what happed to me the first time I tried except I played 12 months instead of 3. I own a treadmill now.
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Posts: 1149 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
Putte
Member
Member # 3267
Rate Member posted 07-02-2004 04:45 AM
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You say you dont know how you do at 2-4 limit because people play any two cards....
Here is an advice. Keep your job. You wont make it. If you dont know how to beat the limits where people play loose, youre not going to make it. Omg. Come on.
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Posts: 135 | From: Home | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
MegaOutZ
Member
Member # 2647
Rate Member posted 07-02-2004 05:59 AM
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i been a plus player for over a year but i am not quiting my job any time soon because i been there playing full time live poker, it is very stressful. and soon poker will be no longer fun, it is like a real job but unlike a real job, it doesn't guaranteed u get pays. and when the pokergod is mad at u, u will have a downswing experience like u never see before. your $200 won't even cover 1 bad session of 5/10, heck it won't even cover .50/1 if u have a bad week. but anyway good luck whatever u decide to do, but keep us update on your venture.
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Posts: 336 | From: edmonton | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
emvikings
Junior Member
Member # 4225
Rate Member posted 07-03-2004 05:39 PM
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I've been playing for almost three months and I am just an amateur poker player. I love playing, but no matter how good I get or how much money I win I will NEVER quit my job. It is just too risky.
There are just two quotes I want to share:
Amateurs built the ark
Professionals built the titanic
Poker-The hardest way to make an easy living
Good Luck
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Posts: 9 | From: blacks fork river | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |
Z
Member
Member # 2613
Member Rated:
posted 07-03-2004 05:51 PM
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Lets nut degrade peoples dreams here. The guy deserves all the luck he can get.
The post I just made at the my poker career thread was actually meant to relate to this thread. So I'll doublepost the link here as well http://muetze.net/misc/sunscreen.html
There's only one way of finding out what is rtight and what isn't and that's by trying it out. But good research never hurts.
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Posts: 1551 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Sentinel
Junior Member
Member # 3815
Rate Member posted 07-06-2004 04:27 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Z:
Lets nut degrade peoples dreams here. The guy deserves all the luck he can get.
There's only one way of finding out what is rtight and what isn't and that's by trying it out. But good research never hurts.
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Trying it out isn't the only way of finding what's right and what isn't. In fact, it's the riskiest way. Good research not only doesn't hurt, it's absolutely essential. JimsAces doesn't keep good records of his play... this alone should give him pause.
The man is allowed to have dreams, but they should be somewhat based in reality. Dreams don't pay the bills. I wish the guy luck, but it takes luck combined with hard work to make it as a pro.
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Posts: 21 | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
NIN
Member
Member # 2551
posted 07-06-2004 03:57 PM
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Maybe this will help some Old Post
Angel hasn't been around lately but his guidance lives on.
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Posts: 2244 | From: See the warlords of a heavenly rank, and know that war is the will of god. | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
JasonVIP
Member
Member # 3915
Rate Member posted 07-06-2004 05:00 PM
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Good luck Jim!
I support anyone who wants to try to realize their dreams, however the most surprising thing that I read was "5 top 30 finishes this year". In the last month, I've had been to the final table 3-4 times in 600+ person tourney, and top 30 at a minimum of 15 times in 250-600 person tourney's. I work until 6:00pm and go home and play and I've cashed out $1000 about four times this month, and am about to cash out again. With that said, I do not believe that there is any chance of me making more money by quiting my job than by doing both. With the small cash you are talking about, I just can't believe it would be possible for you to make more than you did previously with both incomes. After playing for three years you should have a SERIOUS bankroll. I haven't played poker since 10th grade in HS until I got online about 5-6 weeks ago.
IMO the best money to be made is in high limit SnG's. I moved up two days ago to $100 and $200 SnG's and have been successful. I haven't found the game to be more difficult overall than some of the lower games because it's a little more predictable.
GL to you though! I'm just trying to be as truthful as possible, (while slightly gloating:P).
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Posts: 117 | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Jirdman
Member
Member # 4205
Rate Member posted 07-06-2004 05:37 PM
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Quantifying how many times you've made top 30 finishes over any specific period of time really isn't meaningful to those whom you're addressing unless you also state the number of attempts you've made in that same period of time.
Thus you should state "I made 15 top 30 finishes over the last 45 days in 600+ person tourneys in XX number of attempts".
Some people on the board may not attempt a large tourney more than once a month, while others might attempt only once a year.
Knowing the frequency of your play in this type of tournament would give your statements more impact.
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Posts: 73 | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged |
JasonVIP
Member
Member # 3915
Rate Member posted 07-06-2004 06:46 PM
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You're right Jirdman, what the heck was I thinking!!!
My favorite tournament is the $10,000 guaranteed $15 tourney at Pacific every night @ 10:00pm EST - always from 500-700 entrants. Occasionally if I'm on I'll play in a $30 or $100 entry tournament before or after. In general, all of the tournaments pay for the top 10% of the finishers. I've probably played in about 50 different tournaments, cashed in about 25 of them, and made some nice dough ($300-900) in about 6 of them. Pacific Poker is a fish magnet compared to PokerStars, where I also play.
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