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$50 Max Buy 6 seat NL table.
You mess around and call a $4 raise with 46 offsuit putting you heads up with the raiser. Both of you have around $75 in chips. The pot is $8.
Flop comes 10c 3h 7s rainbow.
You check raiser checks. Turn comes Ad completing the rainbow. You check and the raiser bets $5. You know for a fact he has pocket aces for a set.
Do you call?
Just interested to see how everyone looks at this.
[ 06-18-2004, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: stocktrader23 ]
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
jinxpalmer
Member
Member # 1083
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 08:42 AM
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Hell no.. For one thing... why the hell are you in this hand anyways??? Now unless you know some tell on the raiser that I dont know (A tell that will make him fold)... Fold that crap
[ 06-18-2004, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: jinxpalmer ]
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Posts: 495 | From: Portsmouth | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 08:47 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by jinxpalmer:
Hell no.. For one thing... why the hell are you in this hand anyways??? Now unless you know some tell on the raiser that I dont know (A tell that will make him fold)... Fold that crap
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Exactly what I expected you to say.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Twinsfan
Member
Member # 4037
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 08:54 AM
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well first of all you shouldn't be in that situation with 4-6, but if somehow you knew he had a set of aces, I'd call the $5 bet, because if you do catch your 5, which is about 1 in 9, then you have to assume he'd go all-in for the rest of his $70 with a set of aces, giving you an additional 14:1 implied pot odds.., plus the $20 already in the pot. This is all assuming you knew exactly what he had, and that he wouldn't put you on a 4-6 though.
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Posts: 114 | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged |
Jeanie
Member
Member # 3411
Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2004 08:59 AM
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quote:
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You mess around and call a $4 raise with 46 offsuit
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Yeah good way to get at your goal, play like a maniac. Wonder strategy. Weren't you supposedly a pro? Come on now, that was a bad play and you should know it.
There is only one answer with this hand.
Fold preflop.
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Posts: 3449 | From: xo*Kisses*xo@PokerStars | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
jinxpalmer
Member
Member # 1083
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 09:00 AM
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I really don't understand this post at all... There are so many better hands to win in nl online than this hand.. why waste your bankroll with this one?
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Posts: 495 | From: Portsmouth | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 09:42 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by jinxpalmer:
I really don't understand this post at all... There are so many better hands to win in nl online than this hand.. why waste your bankroll with this one?
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Implied odds bud.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 09:42 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by JeanieJ:
quote:
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You mess around and call a $4 raise with 46 offsuit
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Yeah good way to get at your goal, play like a maniac. Wonder strategy. Weren't you supposedly a pro? Come on now, that was a bad play and you should know it.
There is only one answer with this hand.
Fold preflop.
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I'll say one thing. NL is nothing like limit.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Jeanie
Member
Member # 3411
Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2004 09:51 AM
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stock, you must be overly tired.
46o isn't a good raise calling hand. In limit or NL. It's negative EV to even call that hand
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Posts: 3449 | From: xo*Kisses*xo@PokerStars | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 10:05 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by JeanieJ:
stock, you must be overly tired.
46o isn't a good raise calling hand. In limit or NL. It's negative EV to even call that hand
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Glad you think so.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Jeanie
Member
Member # 3411
Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2004 10:19 AM
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Yeah me too. Just remember I am woman, I'm always right, hear me roar
***ROAR***
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Posts: 3449 | From: xo*Kisses*xo@PokerStars | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 10:22 AM
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quote:
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Originally post
ed by JeanieJ:
Yeah me too. Just remember I am woman, I'm always right, hear me roar
***ROAR***
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NL short is a very different game. And I do mean very.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
RobBulliT
Member
Member # 2211
Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2004 12:20 PM
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Yes I would call.
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Posts: 1348 | From: Sweden | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged |
CTBob
Member
Member # 2546
posted 06-18-2004 01:13 PM
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I don't think the pre-flop call was THAT terrible. It would be a little better if the cards were suited, giving him something more than a straight draw. The biggest pot I ever took down in my life was won with 4s5s.
I have read and re-read Super System, and it is THE book on no limit. The book has made me look at NL in an entirely different way. No limit poker is much lesss of a card game. It's a game of people and situations that is driven by implied odds. Where my limit experience is that it is a mechanical game driven by pot odds and expectation. Limit is a pre-flop game, no limit is a flop game. I don't place too much emphasis on EV (although it is still important). My goal is to break an opponent. In limit you are trying to win pots, in NL you are trying to break your opponents. Breaking enough opponents will make up for all the times you make a loose call with the worst of it. Outside of AA and KK, low suited cards are EXACTLY the types of hands you want to call raises with. I have skinned plenty of sheep who call MY raises with cards like AQ,KQ,KJ,AT, etc.
When he called pre-flop, he was getting 18.75:1 on his call. Secondly, he was ahead, so it's not like call/fold will hurt him. In Super System Doyle talks about how he often has the worst hand when he's in there gambling. What allows him to do this is all the small pots he picks up that nobody wants (usually with a good bluff). In that sense, I look at loose calls I might make as freerolling, It's not MY money I'm playing with, and if these too cards give me a flop that can break the raiser, I have made a good investment.
But back to the people game. I have been thinking about how NL is very situational after being criticized for two plays I made recently. In both cases, based on the SITUATION AT THE TIME, including stack sizes, position, and my overall table image, I beleive I made the right plays, and I did win both hands in the end. I also feel that in NL there is a bigger benefit to advertising plays. Just think, if stock trader called $5 and sucked out on the river and the set of aces went all in, what an impression that would make. I have started reading Mike Caro's section on draw poker in Super System. Although I don't play too much draw, I'm very interested in Caro's general theories. I have decided that leaving my opponents with an impression, and mixing things up are very powerful in NL. In no limit, I think you will never be a very good player if you are simply tight, or loose. I am trying to be the kind of player that my opponent can't read. I want them to guess. If I only ever called raises with big cards, how easy would I be to beat? Breaking AA with low cards leaves a lasting impression. It might scare people who raise pre-flop and then get rags on the flop. Perfect steal for you since you could be playing any two cards. What about next time when you have a legitimate hand, the loose action you gave will get your good hands paid off more often. I'm always trying to mix up my play. Even my pre flop actions can be random. Some people advocate coming in for a 5XBB raise pre-flop no matter what cards you raise with. I personally don't. I like to randomize my raising. Sometimes I will move all in pre flop with AA, or even 72. Sometimes I will do the standard raise, sometimes more or less, and I don't base it on the value of my cards. I want to encourage loose calls, that's what you want, loose calls when you have the goods, that's how you get paid off in NL. Also, keeping your opponents confused opens up plenty of bluffing opportunities.
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Posts: 2708 | From: Ansonia,CT,USA | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Bruce C.
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Member # 3276
Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2004 01:57 PM
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Ok, but you can do the same thing with cards that give you a few more ways to go than 46o.
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Posts: 2956 | From: Illinois | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
whrimfunis
Member
Member # 3563
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 02:11 PM
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I agree with others who think the play was to fold preflop. That said, I think you should definitely call the $5 bet in this inst
ance because you're getting great implied odds.
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Posts: 74 | From: Southern Cal | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged |
londonace
Member
Member # 3404
Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2004 02:25 PM
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Agree totally with CTBob, NL is not about the cards until the river, that's when it matters what you're holding. If I am going to call a raise with 46o im going to be hoping to take the pot before the river if I believe my opponent to be weak.
In this case you are sure you are up against AA. You must have been pretty sure of this preflop, and if you were I think the call pre-flop was wrong. Not a lot of people will drop AA heads up, so there is about a 1% chance you're going to be able to bluff this guy, which means the only way you will win this pot is with a miracle flop. You're putting a 1/15 of your stack in, are the chances of a miracle straight or full house better than 1/15?
BTW I would call on the turn also, you have implied odds and would take the guy all-in if you hit your card.
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Posts: 186 | From: London, England | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
NiHeraNeSsu
Member
Member # 1738
Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2004 05:52 PM
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quote:
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Flop comes 10c 3h 7s rainbow.
You check raiser checks. Turn comes Ad completing the rainbow. You check and the raiser bets $5. You know for a fact he has pocket aces for a set.
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?????? 1000 question marks ??????????????
I would bet $200 against $1 he did not have pocket Aces. What hell make you go to this conclusion ? If he has AA he would bet you on flop if he is not total moron of course. Do you think he need a third Ace coming to bet 3 rags flop ? And finally when his Ace came he start betting ? So he was not so sure that he is better than you on flop and did not bet his AA letting you catch inside straight or runner runner flush ? Is this post and all replies serious ?
And also calling 4-6o to the raise is what ? suicide ? temporary mental dsability ? why to not call and raise with any hand than ? 4-6 is one of the worst hands possible.
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Posts: 441 | From: Brooklyn,NY,US | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
NiHeraNeSsu
Member
Member # 1738
Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2004 06:06 PM
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quote:
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if somehow you knew he had a set of aces, I'd call the $5 bet, because if you do catch your 5, which is about 1 in 9
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One more terrific statement - I would say new acievement in calculation theory. 13 different card kinds in a deck and chances to catch needed one of 13 are 1 to 9. Just great.
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Posts: 441 | From: Brooklyn,NY,US | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
bilo
Member
Member # 2505
Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2004 06:12 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by stocktrader23:
You check raiser checks. Turn comes Ad completing the rainbow. You check and the raiser bets $5. You know for a fact he has pocket aces for a set.
Do you call?
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You have 4 outs (any 5 for nut straight), and the implied odds are enough to justify gambling when being 1 to 10 underdog, if you know that your opponent has AA or some kind of other hand that will call your all-in on the river.
By the way, unless you were the BB, I don't like your call before the flop, I know those marginal hands are playable, but I don't want to play them without position against a pre-flop raiser.
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Posts: 809 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
bilo
Member
Member # 2505
Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2004 06:16 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by NiHeraNeSsu:
One more terrific statement - I would say new acievement in calculation theory. 13 different card kinds in a deck and chances to catch needed one of 13 are 1 to 9. Just great.
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It's 1 in 11, there are 44 unseen cards (assuming you know that your opponent has AA) and 4 of them are 5s.
Alternative calculation: 2 players dispute the probablity of an event; one claims it's 1 in 9, other claims it is 1 in 13, so you take the average and it is 1 in 11.
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Posts: 809 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
NiHeraNeSsu
Member
Member # 1738
Member Rated:
posted 06-18-2004 06:45 PM
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quote:
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assuming you know that your opponent has AA .................................
other claims it is 1 in 13, so you take the average and it is 1 in 11.
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I did not say it's 1 to 13, just was wandering what hell it's 1 to 9. But since he does not have AA for sure he may have 5 as well. So this is 46 unseen cards, not 44 and correct numbers are 1:11.5
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Posts: 441 | From: Brooklyn,NY,US | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 06:53 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by CTBob:
I don't think the pre-flop call was THAT terrible. It would be a little better if the cards were suited, giving him something more than a straight draw. The biggest pot I ever took down in my life was won with 4s5s.
I have read and re-read Super System, and it is THE book on no limit. The book has made me look at NL in an entirely different way. No limit poker is much lesss of a card game. It's a game of people and situations that is driven by implied odds. Where my limit experience is that it is a mechanical game driven by pot odds and expectation. Limit is a pre-flop game, no limit is a flop game. I don't place too much emphasis on EV (although it is still important). My goal is to break an opponent. In limit you are trying to win pots, in NL you are trying to break your opponents. Breaking enough opponents will make up for all the times you make a loose call with the worst of it. Outside of AA and KK, low suited cards are EXACTLY the types of hands you want to call raises with. I have skinned plenty of sheep who call MY raises with cards like AQ,KQ,KJ,AT, etc.
When he called pre-flop, he was getting 18.75:1 on his call. Secondly, he was ahead, so it's not like call/fold will hurt him. In Super System Doyle talks about how he often has the worst hand when he's in there gambling. What allows him to do this is all the small pots he picks up that nobody wants (usually with a good bluff). In that sense, I look at loose calls I might make as freerolling, It's not MY money I'm playing with, and if these too cards give me a flop that can break the raiser, I have made a good investment.
But back to the people game. I have been thinking about how NL is very situational after being criticized for two plays I made recently. In both cases, based on the SITUATION AT THE TIME, including stack sizes, position, and my overall table image, I beleive I made the right plays, and I did win both hands in the end. I also feel that in NL there is a bigger benefit to advertising plays. Just think, if stock trader called $5 and sucked out on the river and the set of aces went all in, what an impression that would make. I have started reading Mike Caro's section on draw poker in Super System. Although I don't play too much draw, I'm very interested in Caro's general theories. I have decided that leaving my opponents with an impression, and mixing things up are very powerful in NL. In no limit, I think you will never be a very good player if you
are simply tight, or loose. I am trying to be the kind of player that my opponent can't read. I want them to guess. If I only ever called raises with big cards, how easy would I be to beat? Breaking AA with low cards leaves a lasting impression. It might scare people who raise pre-flop and then get rags on the flop. Perfect steal for you since you could be playing any two cards. What about next time when you have a legitimate hand, the loose action you gave will get your good hands paid off more often. I'm always trying to mix up my play. Even my pre flop actions can be random. Some people advocate coming in for a 5XBB raise pre-flop no matter what cards you raise with. I personally don't. I like to randomize my raising. Sometimes I will move all in pre flop with AA, or even 72. Sometimes I will do the standard raise, sometimes more or less, and I don't base it on the value of my cards. I want to encourage loose calls, that's what you want, loose calls when you have the goods, that's how you get paid off in NL. Also, keeping your opponents confused opens up plenty of bluffing opportunities.
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I haven't read the first poker book but Super Systems sounds like a winner. You seem to play the same way I do, to kill whoever sits at the table. It's absolutely hilarious when you take down pot after pot with bluffs, semi bluffs, the nuts, etc. All the while you have 3 people calling you a fish and also calling $20 bets preflop when you hold AA. NL is absolutely wonderful and I love the psychology of it. Got a few good ones I've tried that you may want to play with one day even if just for fun.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 07:01 PM
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By the way everyone, I didn't play this hand and then post about it. I was just posing a question to see how everyone thought about NL poker, especially short tables. I won't say that I haven't paid $4 with 46 off before though because most likey I have.
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
jinxpalmer
Member
Member # 1083
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 07:51 PM
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The aces have around a 90% chance of winning the hand. You have around a 10% chance. This is not good poker and if you make calls like this all day long when you are a 10-1 dog.. You will be making alot of people happy 9 out of the ten times.
Now that 5 dollar bet he made, that is a 10% of the buy in bet.. That is huge for 50 dollar buy in nl. It doesn't matter what the implied odds are, he's making you pay way too much to draw a gutshot
Now if you want to just gamble, sure go ahead and make those calls.. But , if you want to be a serious player who wins consistently, never make those calls
[ 06-18-2004, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: jinxpalmer ]
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Posts: 495 | From: Portsmouth | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 07:59 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by jinxpalmer:
The aces have around a 90% chance of winning the hand. You have around a 10% chance. This is not good poker and if you make calls like this all day long when you are a 10-1 dog.. You will be making alot of people happy 9 out of the ten times.
Now that 5 dollar bet he made, that is a 10% of the buy in bet.. That is huge for 50 dollar buy in nl. It doesn't matter what the implied odds are, he's making you pay way too much to draw a gutshot
Now if you want to just gamble, sure go ahead and make those calls.. But , if you want to be a serious player who wins consistently, never make those calls
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I make those calls all day and I'm a consistent winner. Thanks for the tip though.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
jinxpalmer
Member
Member # 1083
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 08:16 PM
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If you are calling a 10% stack raise with 46 offsuit preflop, then calling another 10% stack raise with a gutshot draw headsup. YOu will lose in poker very easily.
The only different situation might be if you had other people in the hand with you..> Enough to justify both calls...
But with you being headsup lol... You are making the pot yourself.. Everything you win, will basically be the money you put in (not a good investment on a gutshot draw)
.. YOu need other peoples money on hands like this if you want to justify calling...
In other words.. YOu need a pot before paying alot to draw with a gutshot.. And not a pot you contributed so much of your stack to make.
[ 06-18-2004, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: jinxpalmer ]
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Posts: 495 | From: Portsmouth | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-18-2004 08:20 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by jinxpalmer:
If you are calling a 10% stack raise with 46 offsuit preflop, then calling another 10% stack raise with a gutshot draw headsup. YOu will lose in poker very easily.
The only different situation might be if you had other people in the hand with you..> Enough to justify that call...
But with you being headsup lol... You are making the pot yourself.. Everything you win, will basically be the money you put in (not a good investment on a gutshot draw)
.. YOu need other peoples money on hands like this if you want to justify calling...
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If the straight hits on river you will most definately get the rest of his stack. Screw the current pot
If you play aggressive poker in SNG's you know what I'm talking about. It gets down to 4 or 5 players and the big stacks just fold up to the desperate little stacks.
When I see the big stack fold to a $150 all in raise when the blinds are 150/300 I cringe.
Then you have the guys that bluff a dry side pot with the case 4th player all in. Lots of times they do this with A high.
Then you have the big stack that folds every sb to the very short stack on every round. Never any pressure on them.
Ugh
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
CowboyRob
Member
Member # 3758
Member Rated:
posted 06-29-2004 03:39 PM
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Very good observation!
That's the same guy that hits on 14 when the dealer is showing a 6 in BJ and takes the dealers 10.
Kowboy
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Posts: 579 | From: Texas | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-29-2004 03:50 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by CowboyRob:
Very good observation!
That's the same guy that hits on 14 when the dealer is showing a 6 in BJ and takes the dealers 10.
Kowboy
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I've had some verbal spats with many people at the blackjack tables. Ah memories.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Crackinizer
Junior Member
Member # 2690
Rate Member posted 06-29-2004 03:52 PM
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I know exactly what your saying, and sometimes as a small stack i find myself yelling at the computer screen hoping the big stacks will raise to knock another small stack out. But as a big stack you can't just try to steal every blind. Personally i'd rather let the small stacks have my small blind rather than doubling them up. I'm not going to give any chips away. I find that when i am a big stack with 4 or 5 people left ill play tighter than i would if i was a small stack. What do you do if you raise in the small blind with rags to steal a small stack's blind then he goes over the top all in? Do you call and double him up? I wouldn't. Ill wait.
Ill leave it to the smaller stacks to knock each other out and catch each other on bluffs but im not going to play unless my hand warrants it. There's no reason to put your lead in jeapordy if you don't have the cards to back up your raises. Just my two cents.
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Posts: 20 | From: San Diego, CA, USA | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
CTBob
Member
Member # 2546
posted 06-29-2004 04:01 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Crackinizer:
I know exactly what your saying, and sometimes as a small stack i find myself yelling at the computer screen hoping the big stacks will raise to knock another small stack out. But as a big stack you can't just try to steal every blind. Personally i'd rather let the small stacks have my small blind rather than doubling them up. I'm not going to give any chips away. I find that when i am a big stack with 4 or 5 people left ill play tighter than i would if i was a small stack. What do you do if you raise in the small blind with rags to steal a small stack's blind then he goes over the top all in? Do you call and double him up? I wouldn't. Ill wait.
Ill leave it to the smaller stacks to knock each other out and catch each other on bluffs but im not going to play unless my hand warrants it. There's no reason to put your lead in jeapordy if you don't have the cards to back up your raises. Just my two cents.
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That's the opposite end of the annoying spectrum, the big stack who goes out of his way to break the small stack with any two random cards. I know the small stack is desperate, but come on, his hand has to be better than the 25o the big stack is holding. Next thing you know, the guy that should have been busted out 5 hands ago is right on your heels.
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Posts: 2708 | From: Ansonia,CT,USA | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-29-2004 04:07 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Crackinizer:
I know exactly what your saying, and sometimes as a small stack i find myself yelling at the computer screen hoping the big stacks will raise to knock another small stack out. But as a big stack you can't just try to steal every blind. Personally i'd rather let the small stacks have my small blind rather than doubling them up. I'm not going to give any chips away. I find that when i am a big stack with 4 or 5 people left ill play tighter than i would if i was a small stack. What do you do if you raise in the small blind with rags to steal a small stack's blind then he goes over the top all in? Do you call and double him up? I wouldn't. Ill wait.
Ill leave it to the smaller stacks to knock each other out and catch each other on bluffs but im not going to play unless my hand warrants it. There's no reason to put your lead in jeapordy if you don't have the cards to back up your raises. Just my two cents.
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I don't mean put pressure on them with any 2 cards. Don't let them check the bb when you decide to see a flop every time either.
A tight big stack is the easiest stack to take out. Knowing you won't call with anything but strong hands I'd be inclined to put pressure on you with any size stack.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Crackinizer
Junior Member
Member # 2690
Rate Member posted 06-29-2004 04:11 PM
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quote:
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A tight big stack is the easiest stack to take out. Knowing you won't call with anything but strong hands I'd be i
nclined to put pressure on you with any size stack.
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That's what i hope for. Then if i do call i am almost certainly in the lead and will knock out such an aggressive small stack. Also against that type of player i would play back at them if i noticed them playing overly agressive.
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Posts: 20 | From: San Diego, CA, USA | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Poker_God
Member
Member # 3867
Rate Member posted 06-29-2004 04:20 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Crackinizer:
quote:
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A tight big stack is the easiest stack to take out. Knowing you won't call with anything but strong hands I'd be inclined to put pressure on you with any size stack.
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That's what i hope for. Then if i do call i am almost certainly in the lead and will knock out such an aggressive small stack. Also against that type of player i would play back at them if i noticed them playing overly agressive.
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Well there you go. If you play back at them you aren't rolling over and letting them go from 400 chips to 1500 in a few hands.
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Posts: 1705 | From: LA | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
primetime
Member
Member # 3052
Member Rated:
posted 06-29-2004 06:04 PM
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i think there is a middle ground between trying to be too bullish and being too passive. You want your raises to mean something to the shortstacks. As a shortstack myself i am waiting for any kind of a hand to make a move and i know others do the same. So if you arent prepared to call the shortstacks all-in you probably shouldnt be raising.
I think the big mistake many people make is raising too much preflop in order to steal. Usually shortstacks will fold to ANY raise or if they have a big hand they will come over the top.
For example, the blinds are 100-200. If you are the big stack (4,000) there is no need to raise to 600 or 700 in this spot against the shortstack (1,200). In that spot you are forcing him to either come over the top or fold. If you raised it to 400, he would still fold with a relatively weak hand. He may call with a medium hand, but you still have position. If he has a strong hand he will probably reraise all in. If you were trying to steal then you can lay down.
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Posts: 336 | From: ny | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
Benzine
Member
Member # 2751
Member Rated:
posted 06-29-2004 06:12 PM
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It can sometimes be in the big stack's favor to keep the small stack around. For example say there is big stack, a small stack and two medium stacks. The big stack almost has a license to steal against the other medium stacks because they're usually trying to wait out the shortstack and make it into the money. Granted, this isn't always the case, but there are times when the bigstack want the shortstacks around so he can play harder against the medium stacks. Also, If you're already a big stack, is getting his puny stack going to make a big difference to your chipcount anyway?
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Posts: 512 | From: Warsaw, IN, USA | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
CowboyRob
Member
Member # 3758
Member Rated:
posted 06-29-2004 07:39 PM
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Great point Ben. I am really impressed with your observations. I have been on both sides of the coin. Trying to get into the money wishing the big guy would stop folding in the SB and stealing blind after blind watching the poor guys on the bubble pray that someone gets crazy.
I still don't like someone betting into a dry pot with nothing just so they can feel good about bluffing the other player out of the pot when there is a chance to knock somebody out late in a Trn or SnG.
Dan lastnamefromhell at full contact poker has a great artical on just this subject.
Kowboy
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Posts: 579 | From: Texas | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Poker Champ
Member
Member # 1949
Member Rated:
posted 06-29-2004 08:46 PM
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I once seen a big stack with around $8,000 in chips fold to a short stacks all in raise from the SB. The blinds were at $100 $200 and the SB went all-in for his last $235, it would have cost the big stack another $35 to call. I almost fell out of my chair.
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Posts: 742 | From: www.pokerall-in.com | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged |
superhand
Member
Member # 3938
Rate Member posted 06-29-2004 09:12 PM
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hmm
[ 06-29-2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: superhand ]
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Posts: 49 | From: Sacramento, Ca. | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
superhand
Member
Member # 3938
Rate Member posted 06-29-2004 09:14 PM
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[/qb][/QUOTE]That's the opposite end of the annoying spectrum, the big stack who goes out of his way to break the small stack with any two random cards. I know the small stack is desperate, but come on, his hand has to be better than the 25o the big stack is holding. Next thing you know, the guy that should have been busted out 5 hands ago is right on your heels. [/QB][/QUOTE]
The same people who say nh to the big stack when he catches cards against a small stack who goes all in. But if the Big stack looses then you all say what a bad call. I've made great calls against a small stack and bad ones. It all comes down to pot odds and a coin flip. So try not to worry about how the other player is making or losing his/her chips. Worry about how you can make a move and win the SNG.
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Posts: 49 | From: Sacramento, Ca. | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Stoobs
Member
Member # 3780
Rate Member posted 06-29-2004 09:18 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Poker Champ:
I once seen a big stack with around $8,000 in chips fold to a short stacks all in raise from the SB. The blinds were at $100 $200 and the SB went all-in for his last $235, it would have cost the big stack another $35 to call. I almost fell out of my chair.
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were they buddies or something? thats so ridiculous it sounds fishy.
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Posts: 178 | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
NiHeraNeSsu
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Member # 1738
Member Rated:
posted 06-30-2004 01:37 AM
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quote:
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I once seen a big stack with around $8,000 in chips fold to a short stacks all in raise from the SB. The blinds were at $100 $200 and the SB went all-in for his last $235, it would have cost the big stack another $35 to call. I almost fell out of my chair.
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Well often people, having something like 83o on BB, check in the "Check/Fold" box and do not have a time to uncheck it when everyone fold to them and SB raise. That's probably why.
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Posts: 441 | From: Brooklyn,NY,US | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
Poker Champ
Member
Member # 1949
Member Rated:
posted 06-30-2004 02:15 AM
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quote:
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Well often people, having something like 83o on BB, check in the "Check/Fold" box and do not have a time to uncheck it when everyone fold to them and SB raise. That's probably why.
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Ya, that kind of makes since. I've done simular stupid things. I was playing at Poker Stars once and the player in the BB when I was in the SB was sitting out. I got a crappy hand and just clicked on that box. Before I even realized what I had done all the blind money was sliding in his direction. Boy did I feel like an idiot.
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Posts: 742 | From: www.pokerall-in.com | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged |
Cincod
Member
Member # 1814
Rate Member posted 06-30-2004 03:09 AM
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i like to keep the short stacks in at that point cause I can use the fear the other two players feel to my advantage. It's easy to steal blinds from the 2nd and 3rd place player when a short stacked 4th place player is still in. That way when the money round finally starts I'm in good position. Maybe that's why they do it.
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Posts: 589 | From: vancouver | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged |
Reelishymn
Member
Member # 3058
Rate Member posted 06-30-2004 08:29 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by stocktrader23:
If you play aggressive poker in SNG's you know what I'm talking about. It gets down to 4 or 5 players and the big stacks just fold up to the desperate little stacks.
When I see the big stack fold to a $150 all in raise when the blinds are 150/300 I cringe.
Then you have the guys that bluff a dry side pot with the case 4th player all in. Lots of times they do this with A high.
Then you have the big stack that folds every sb to the very short stack on every round. Never any pressure on them.
Ugh
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Very good post. This often happens to me when I have a medium stack and could fold into the money while the big stack pushes people around. But instead, I end up doing the work since the big stack obviously does not know how to use his/her chips to their advantage. Then this results in me busting out at the bubble sometimes.
If I'm the big stack I'll be stealing the small stacks' blinds when I'm on the button because there's a good chance that they'll fold since their trying to make the money.
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Posts: 873 | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
whrimfunis
Member
Member # 3563
Rate Member posted 06-30-2004 03:01 PM
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I just played in a $50 SNG where I was one of two shortstacks with five people left and the shortest stack, with 309 chips and the blinds at 100/200, raised all-in from the small blind and the BB, with about 1800 chips, folded instead of paying the 109 to see it.
Instant karma, though - she finished out of the money and I ended up second.
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