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my first night of play online (for real money, that is). final table of a 5 dollar buy in, 4-person heads up tournament. this is how i lost it all. *********** # 1 ************** PokerStars Game #397344109: Tournament #1451808, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round II, Level I (20/40) - 2004/04/20 - 21:52:48 (ET) Table '1451808 2' One on One Seat #2 is the button

Seat 1: Xena974 (4080 in chips) Seat 2: stinkypete13 (1920 in chips) stinkypete13: posts small blind 20 Xena974: posts big blind 40 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to stinkypete13 [Qs Kd] stinkypete13: raises 40 to 80 Xena974: calls 40 *** FLOP *** [Ks Kc 4d] Xena974: checks stinkypete13: bets 40 Xena974: calls 40 *** TURN *** [Ks Kc 4d] [As] Xena974: checks stinkypete13: bets 120 Xena974: calls 120 *** RIVER *** [Ks Kc 4d As] [2d] Xena974: checks stinkypete13: bets 400 Xena974: raises 400 to 800 stinkypete13: raises 880 to 1680 and is all-in Xena974: calls 880 *** SHOW DOWN *** stinkypete13: shows [Qs Kd] (three of a kind, Kings) Xena974: shows [2h 2c] (a full house, Deuces full of Kings) Xena974 collected 3840 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 3840 | Rake 0 Board [Ks Kc 4d As 2d] Seat 1: Xena974 (big blind) showed [2h 2c] and won (3840) with a full house, Deuces full of Kings Seat 2: stinkypete13 (button) (small blind) showed [Qs Kd] and lost with three of a kind, Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 21 | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged | William H. Bonney Member Member # 3021 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 01:08 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- B.S. this is a bad beat. STT, 4 people left. I am second in chips. i have AsAh i raise UTG; botton reraises me, i reraise, he goes all in. i call. he turns up AcAd. I looked at my friend watching and laughed and said "what r the odds". he laughed too. flop: 10d,Kd,Qc turn: 3d river:8d before i realize what had happend the chips all go to him. then reality set in. i looked at my friend and said "holy fuk what r the odds". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 199 | From: Lansdale | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged | 4ofdiamonds Junior Member Member # 3663 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 02:10 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's insane...i've always thought about that happening in the back of my head, but i never thought it would. I think i would feel worse about that than getting beat with quads. What an experience man. You must have been on fire. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 6 | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged | skyking Member Member # 3035 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 03:14 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stinky: Horrible, horrible, horrible beat!!! The way she(?) played that hand was ridiculous. Maybe you had been caught bluffing earlier on, I don't know, but still! Absolutely crazy play. Almost makes me think she knew that deuce was coming... The AA vs. AA thing isn't a bad beat, that's just poker. I had the same thing happen tonight with AQ (diamonds) vs. AQ (hearts). I lost to a heart flush. That's poker, not a bad beat. It still sucks, though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged | 4ofdiamonds Junior Member Member # 3663 Rate Mem

ber posted 04-21-2004 03:29 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- no no no....if you both go all in PRE-FLOP and have the SAME HAND ( QQ to QQ, or AA to AA etc.)It is definately a bad beat if the pot isn't split. That's my opinon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 6 | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged | Reelishymn Member Member # 3058 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 04:31 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by 4ofdiamonds: no no no....if you both go all in PRE-FLOP and have the SAME HAND ( QQ to QQ, or AA to AA etc.)It is definately a bad beat if the pot isn't split. That's my opinon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with that. My friends had bullets and both went all-in preflop, and one of them won with the flush. Really sucks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 873 | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged | MarkyMark Member Member # 2140 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 07:48 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- stinkypete, I stongly disagree that this is a bad beat, in fact, this was very poor play on your side. You flop the K-set and then you bet the size of the BB where the BB is 1% of your opponents stack size, what do you expect him to do? of course he hangs in there. when the ace flopped and you bet 3xBB, this showed even more weakness. If you go all-in anyway at the end of the hand, why wait for another 2 cards to come so he can outdraw you? a set of Ks is nice, but with Q kicker this is in no way a lock, which would justify to collect some more bets. No, this was totally your fault. you had the best hand, you gotta make it expensive for him to hang in there with whatever hand he might hold. If you´d move all-in on the flop and he would have called, then I´d consider it a minor bad beat, since he had roughly 5% to catch that deuce. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 559 | From: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged | Crackinizer Junior Member Member # 2690 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 08:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree, i do not think that that KQ against the 22 was that bad of a beat. First off preflop, he is the favorite, and secondly you should've gotten all your chips in way before the river. Slowplaying is always a bad idea. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 20 | From: San Diego, CA, USA | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged | stinkypete Junior Member Member # 3591 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 10:57 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- putting all my chips in before the river, i would have won next to nothing with trips and a high kicker. i knew he didn't have A-K because he would have bet more. in fact, the only thing he could have beat me with was a pocket pair. when he didn't reraise me on the turn i knew i had him beat. on the last card i was calling what i thought was a bluff because he had about a 22 to 1 chance of hitting that card. at those pot odds, his call on the turn was retarded. you can debate whether or not i should have gone all-in on the river, but the fact that it was a bad beat has nothing to do with that. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 21 | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged | stinkypete Junior Member Member # 3591 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 10:59 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- btw, next tournament was an 18-seater that i won. so don't tell me slowplaying is always a bad idea. its not. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 21 | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged | MarkyMark Member Member # 2140 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 11:19 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- putting all my chips in before the river, i would have won next to nothing with trips and a high kicker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- true, but a big hand is not supposed to win huge pots. AND, if you´d move all-in before river, you wouldn´t be whining about what you call a bad beat, right? And it´s just common sense that if you plan to go all-in on the river in case a non-scary card falls with a flopped set or top pair, then you have to do this on the flop or latest on the turn. And i didn´t state slowplaying is bad, but you virtually never want to slowplay a big hand heads-up when there can be cards on the turn/river that have you beat. also, I´d just like to note that your hand-reading on the river was sub-par. a good tactic to read a hand is to look at the hand backwards. if he raises you on the river and hasn´t raised or even bet before, he obviously catched something. of course, he could have also bluffed at the pot, but sometimes we over-read a move by a simple player. his play before the river indicated that this guy is not really a player with a lot of fancy moves. [ 04-21-2004, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: MarkyMark ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 559 | From: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged | patkingpin Junior Member Member # 2855 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 12:37 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am always amazed when people back up their slowplay by saying I would have won next to nothing if I would have bet big. Instead they slowplay and lose all of their chips, then complain that the other person outdrew them. Your bet on the flop was a joke, he would have stayed in with Ace high, I think this is where you lost the hand. Once the turn hit all you saw was your set of Kings, not even thinking how many outs your opponent could have. Your bet h

ere, even though better, was not enough to convince your opponent that you had a good hand, he put you on a bluff or pocket pair also i bet. Your play on the river, well, lets just say you were blinded by your set again. You are playing heads up which means your opponent is staying in with weaker cards generally. For all you know he could have been playing his 35 suited trying to draw the straight which he would have drawn. To put him on pocket 2's would not have been out of the question either. My point is that you were so worried about winning the big one that you forgot to protect your own chips when there was a possibility of being out drawn. If you did look at what he could have had on the river, you could have folded or at least just called his bet to see if it was a bluff, to go All In there makes no sense to me. As they said before the place to go All IN would have been on the flop. Slowplaying is not always a bad idea, but not folding when you've slowplayed long enough to be outdrawn is a bad idea. Learn from this hand and move on, when you can fold that hand on the river, you will see your results get better! ---Patkingpin. [ 04-21-2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: patkingpin ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | bilo Member Member # 2505 Member Rated: posted 04-21-2004 12:55 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm with Mark and Gary on this one, you played very bad and let yourself to get outdrawn. Almost 90% of the chips went to the pot when your opponent had the better hand, sounds more like getting outdrawn and outplayed than "bad beat". Pre-flop: You raised the minimum with a strong hand; I think should have raised at least the size of the pot. Flop: You have a great hand and chose to bet the minimum (why bet the minimum? if you want to slowplay, check; otherwhise bet big and scoop the pot), your opponent calls. Turn: First time you are actually showing strenght (which may be interpreted as another attempt to steal the pot) and your opponent calls again. You got called 3rd time in a row, and you don't suspect that he may be slowplaying something like AA or AK. If you put so many "I don't have much, but please let me have the pot" bets and got called (as opposed to getting raised), it usually means your opponent is either slowplaying or drawing to the nuts. My guess is at this point your opponent thinks you are bluffing by representing an ace. River: 480 is allready in the pot, your opponent improved to a full house and checks, you bet 400, got raised and decide to go all-in. If your opponent is bluffing, he'll fold; if he has a monster and have been slowplaying or drawing as he happened to have you'll get busted. You took an unnessary risk. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 809 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged | incoherentb Member Member # 3385 posted 04-21-2004 01:06 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thats nothing try a full house 6s over kings v nothing on the flop. turn 9 river 9. i lose 9s over kings. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 122 | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | gametime Member Member # 3413 posted 04-21-2004 05:08 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- stinkypete- If you haven't already, I strongly suggest readying the section of Doyle Brunson's Super/System book on how to play AA. There is a good reason he says it either wins a small pot or loses a big pot, as evident here. Whenever I get AA, I am content to win a small pot. Just as long as I win, that is fine. If people are going to try to outdraw me or catch their flush or whatever, it is going to cost them big time. Don't get blinded by the strength of this hand. And what is the deal with all these bad beat stories? The way I have always understood it, a bad beat is where someone makes a bad play, and catches a card against huge odds (usually one or two outs) to win. AA losing to AA is not a bad beat, that is simply how the cards fall. No one makes a bad play going all in pre-flop with AA, so there is no bad beat. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 183 | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | pokerplayboy Member Member # 2749 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 05:23 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with all that slow playing is bad, unless in rare circumstances. Heres a perfect example Last night in our tourny, blinds are at 800/1600 two very loose players are in the blinds, its folded all the way around to them. Small blind calls another 800 w/j6 spades, BB has AA he doestn raise, and the flop brings two spades, and an ace, SB checks, BB checks his set. Trun is a spade, SB throws out 1000, BB calls. River is nothing SB throws out 5grand, BB puts him all in. SB calls, and BB loses his set of ACes to a flush. When asked why he didnt raise preflop, he goes i didnt want to scare him away. Dont slow play, when you can easily be beaten. P.P. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 399 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | knode89 Member Member # 2128 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 05:43 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to agree, should have been bolder earlier on. Now here is a bad one from the other night for me. NL SNG 4 left: Flopped Ace High Flush, bet 500 (25/50 Blinds), one caller who has to call in on to call it. Has set of 3s. Turn Q, River Q. Flopped flush looses to runner runner FH. Then he talks it up that he out played me for it. Which is where the whole table started to laugh at him. He busted out 2 hands later. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 43 | From: kennesaw, ga usa | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged | skyking Member Member # 3035 Rate Member posted 04-22-2004 04:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I stand corrected. After further review, I must agree that this is not a bad beat at all. Your initial raise was way too low. Then only a minimum bet on the flop. Why wouldn't he stay?? You were trying to milk it, but you essentially gave a free card. The bet on the turn was better, but still not near enough. I may not have called the 120, but I can't fault your opponent for it. The implied odds are there -- if a deuce hits, it's a well-disguised boat that almost certainly means that he will get all your chips. (as did happen) Basically, you got caught in your own trap. The real question you need to ask yourself is, "should I have raised all-in after a 400 raise?" I think this is where you could have salvaged it (i.e. - stayed alive) You didn't even consider that you might've been beat. W

hen you bet 400 you didn't want a call obviously, or you would've tried to milk it for less. But you got RAISED. That raise should have told you something. Some questions should've come to mind at this point: Why would they call the 120 on the turn?? Could this 400 raise be for real? AK? maybe, K4? maybe -- either of these and you're dead. K2? maybe - ur screwed, 44? maybe, dead again, AA? probably not, but you never know. Any other king? maybe - you'd be okay. At this point you should give your opponent some credit. If he's got you beat, an all-in raise isn't going to scare him away, so it's suicide. If he's bluffing, a call will still win the pot. Does this make sense to anybody? I wish I could think so clearly when I'm in these situations. That's what I like about this forum, it makes you think! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged | wanderer Member Member # 3219 Rate Member posted 04-22-2004 07:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank god this was playdough. I'm holding 66 with $900 or so. Limp in from middle position. Few more limpers and a player finally raises to $64. He's a loose player and loves to bet any Ax and bets even more with pairs. One player calls before me and I call as well. $200 or so in pot. Flop comes KQ6 I'm looking solid here with 666 knowing he didn't hit his Ace and very doubtfull he has any pocket pair Q or higher. Not even worried about the other guy because he always played garbage and usually raises with a decent hand no matter what position and he limped before me pre-flop. I raise all-in with the rest of my $836. To my surprise he calls and I'm waiting for the chips to slide my way after the other guy folds. Turn comes A River comes A Well, he's holding AQ for AAAQQ I'm holding 66 for 666AA No slowplay except maybe the pre-flop. How could I justify a pre-flop raise with 66 in middle position? Maybe a re-raise? just couldn't see it since I put him on an Ace. Let's say I do slow play and just match the pot for $200 and he calls. I'd have to put him on a pair of K's or Q's with the A kicker to call that. Turn comes Ace and now I know he has at least the Ace paired. If I waited till now to go all I'm only putting $636 against a $600 pot and he will for sure call with the A's and possible 2 pair and bam he gets the river Ace to win it. Damned if you do and damned if you don't! As I said, glad it's only playdough. [ 04-22-2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: wanderer ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 444 | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged | MarkyMark Member Member # 2140 Rate Member posted 04-22-2004 09:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i don´t know how others on the board feel and i don´t wanna offend anyone, but I´d rather not see any posts about play money, it just doesn´t count for anything. it says nothing cause it has no value. there´s nothing to learn from or something to discuss. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 559 | From: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged | stinkypete Junior Member Member # 3591 Rate Member posted 04-22-2004 11:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by MarkyMark: true, but a big hand is not supposed to win huge pots. AND, if you´d move all-in before river, you wouldn´t be whining about what you call a bad beat, right? his play before the river indicated that this guy is not really a player with a lot of fancy moves. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wasn't whining, 20 bucks isnt that big a deal. i was just posting what an actual bad beat is. and its nice that you think you know what kind of "moves" he has. he was check-check-check-raising a lot earlier on. this is exactly the way he bluffed. but its nice to know you think you have a read on him from one hand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 21 | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged | stinkypete Junior Member Member # 3591 Rate Member posted 04-23-2004 12:07 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by gametime: stinkypete- The way I have always understood it, a bad beat is where someone makes a bad play, and catches a card against huge odds (usually one or two outs) to win. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- that's exactly what he had, two outs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 21 | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged | stinkypete Junior Member Member # 3591 Rate Member posted 04-23-2004 12:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by skyking: If he's got you beat, an all-in raise isn't going to scare him away, so it's suicide. If he's bluffing, a call will still win the pot. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- this is the first valid point i've seen here regarding my all-in. this is EXACTLY why i shouldn't have put my chips all-in at the end, although i'm surprised all you "experts" didn't pick up on this. at the time i was under time contraints though (which admittedly is a terrible time to play poker) and made the call without putting enough thought into it. but like i said, the all-in wasn't the point here. i should have just left that out. it's hilarious though that you all think you know this guy's style from watching one hand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 21 | Registered: Apr 2004 | IP: Logged | MarkyMark

Member Member # 2140 Rate Member posted 04-23-2004 01:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- look, i never said I have a read on this guy, but he was just checking till he made his hand and you let him , period! I don´t care if he was 3xcheck-raising before, and actually, this is a sign of a weak player! and what you think we didn´t pick up on has been stated several times throughout this thread. move all-in on the flop when this guy has nothing and not when he was raising you. if you´d still like to look at that play as a bad beat, do it, do it and never advance your game. bad beats are plays where you play perfect but get outdrawn with a few-outer. you clearly didn´t play it perfect, so it´s not a bad beat... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 559 | From: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged | TheAdvantage Member Member # 3016 Rate Member posted 04-23-2004 01:31 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by stinkypete: it's hilarious though that you all think you know this guy's style from watching one hand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just read the entire thread and didnt get the impression that anyone was trying to parlay the image of having a read on your opponent...I think your vision is biased. You made a bad play and it cost you. You'd do much better to realize you made a mistake so you can learn from it and prevent it from happening in the future. The money involved, whether $5, $20, or $3000, is largely irrelevant in determining whether or not you made the correct play. You made a $40 bet into a $160 pot...why in the world wouldnt you bet the pot here? As has already been said, either check raise it, or bet the pot. A $40 bet here is inviting danger. He has to put you on a King or a 4 for you to have him beat here...its hard for him to put you on a king since you're shorthanded and he can see two of them, and you arent likely to raise preflop with any hand that has a 4 in it. He probably thinks he has you beat and is smooth calling to keep you betting. If you fire out with a pot sized bet, he has to consider the possibility that you have the king or some kind of suited or connected 4 that prompted the preflop raise. Wouldnt you love to bet the pot here and get raised?? What would you do with two pair here when facing a pot sized bet, and more importantly how can you use that information to determine what your opponent will do when he has two pair? By making a pot sized bet here you keep him from drawing on you, or with his two pair, you make him pay very much for having the second best hand until the river. Isnt that what winning poker is about?? Getting your money in when you have the best of it? [ 04-22-2004, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: TheAdvantage ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1073 | From: St. Louis area | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | skyking Member Member # 3035 Rate Member posted 04-23-2004 10:03 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I first read the post I thought, "what a bad beat!", and my first post said as much. The scary thing is that I'm sure I've made similar plays and thought the same thing. Only after several people pointed out how the hand was misplayed, did I look at it further, and then posted again. By looking at your hand and analyzing each action, I see what I consider to be problems. But at first I didn't see these at all. I'm a fairly new player and have a lot to learn. That's why I like this forum. You can learn from others, when sometimes you can't learn from yourself (talking about myself in this case). Dude, it's nothing personal at all. He actually didn't have the odds to call the 120 on the turn, but it was too small of a bet, and the 120 just wasn't enough of his stack to bother him: A 23:1 shot on getting a deuce vs. 16:1 implied pot odds (your stack 1920 divided by his 120 bet). So it's technically a mistake, but you just didn't push hard enough. And I think the point here is that you wanted a call. Rather than protecting your hand and taking that pot right there, you wanted to maximize your profit. Well, you got the call, and he got his card. Had you bet 400 on the turn, I think you would have won right there. Hopefully this will be of interest to somebody. I often question the randomness of shuffles. I play on the Prima Poker site (Grand bay poker, Royal vegas..all the same I guess) and lately I have been getting river burned like never before. This is what makes me question the randomness. I have found that for about a week I'll hit everything and then for the next two weeks I get burn after burn. Crazy stuff like going all in at the end of a multi tourney. The other day I landed the bullets and some guy went all in with 12 000 chips on the final table. Of course I called only to see he had a KQos. That to me is just stupid play on his part. Fine. I had AA. The flop was Q, whatever, whatever. I don't think I need to tell you what happened on the river. He won of course and I was left wondering if online poker is just a waste of time or not. I love the game and consider myself an intermediate player. My game doesn't change much so to have such weird swings of big wins and bigger loses just doesn't seem natural to me. I'm a relatively tight player. Are these things happening because there are more lousy players online or is this thing fixed. Hard to say. I won't even go near PP because of what I've read but has anyone had the same experience on the Prima Poker network? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 585 | From: vancouver | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged | TyeJae Member Member # 3504 Member Rated: posted 04-20-2004 11:27 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Live Poker Game 4/17/04 $40 buy-in for $300 in chips and one $20 rebuy for an additional $300. I rebought right away. 14 players left out of 41. Blinds 100-200. I have 800 chips left at this point and am in the big blind, now I have 600 chips left. Position 3 and 4 limp in for 200 and all else fold even SB. I look down at AA. Raise all in. Position 3 folds and 4 deliberates for what seemed 3-4min and finally says, "I think this is the worst call I have ever made, but let's go!". I turn over AA and he turns over 8K suits don't matter. Flop XX8 Turn 8 River K Online poker is not rigged my friend. -TyeJae- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 161 | From: Grand Rapids, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | YolkyPalky Member Member # 2603 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 12:06 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's funny Tae, but sometimes it sure seems like Party, or online in general, is built to payoff the "8K" callers more than in real life, even though you have just shown us a real life example. But I see that stuff happen soooo much online sometimes it makes one wonder.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 181 | From: San Diego, California | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged | William H. Bonney Member Member # 3021 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 12:59 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i understand how u can get mad at losing with AA, but really haow many hands do u see that a pair wins. when you have AA unless u hit an A on the board, ur in touble. u can lose to two pair, trips, str8, flush, full house, quads and or str8 flush. so when u look at it there is a reason why AA doesnt always win. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 199 | From: Lansdale | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged | Cincod Member Member # 1814 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 08:56 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey WH BONNEY. Good to see you here. I've played you quite a few times as imagemaker17. Talk about bad beats. lol. just kidding -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 585 | From: vancouver | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged | MarkyMark Member Member # 2140 Rate Member posted 04-21-2004 09:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- but really haow many hands do u see that a pair wins. when you have AA unless u hit an A on the board, ur in touble. u can lose to two pair, trips, str8, flush, full house, quads and or str8 flush. so when u look at it there is a reason why AA doesnt always win. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you couldn´t be more wrong with this statement. clearly you don´t keep tracks of how you perform and what you´re winning hands are. Winning with 1 Pair accounts for about 40% of my winning hands, 2 pair adds another 27%, that´s nearly 70% of all hands are won with 1 pair or 2 pair and I can´t even count the number when i played high pair and another pair came up on the board, winning with 2 pair, allthough only my pocket pair held up. my AA held up and won the pot in 88% of the times, pocket Kings held up 85% of the times, making them both my hands I won most $$$ with. a funny sidenote from my stats: guess which hand accounts for the highest losing number? of course AQo, allthough I know its a scary hand. [ 04-21-2004, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: MarkyMark ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 559 | From: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged | pokerplayboy Member Member # 2749 Rate Member posted 04-22-2004 12:55 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have to in throw in another live game where AA gets beat. Tonight late stages of a tourny 25 dollar buy in only 10 people in it, 7 people left 800/1600 blinds. Im in the BB with KK, three calls to the button who raises 1000, SB calls, I do the only thing to me that makes sense all in Theres 9000 in the pot, and its to me I go all in for 12,600 more. IT was a very loose tourny with only two tight aggressive players. All fold except the original raiser who calls his remainder with 10,600, and the SB who has us both covered calls also. So theirs around 33k in the pot, well original raiser shows rockets, i show kings, and SB shows 66. Flop comes QJ6 turn 10, river and 8. Both preflop favorites get beat by some idiot who calls most of their chips with pocket 6s. Point is idiots will play anything at anytime, just take it, and understand that its a game of swings, just make sure your on the positive end of it. P.P. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 399 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | Jeanie Member Member # 3411 Member Rated: posted 04-22-2004 03:18 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I probably lose AA at least once a day. I guess you get used to it. It's easier if you don't let yourself get so involved in the hand that way if something comes up ie: Js 5c 4d (turn) 3s (river) Jd. it's easier to fold. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3238 | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | awolf Member Member # 2986 Rate Member posted 04-22-2004 03:19 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by cincod: Hopefully this will be of interest to somebody. I often question the randomness of shuffles. I play on the Prima Poker site (Grand bay poker, Royal vegas..all the same I guess) and lately I have been getting river burned like never before. This is what makes me question the randomness. I have found that for about a week I'll hit everything and then for the next two weeks I get burn after burn. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to life. Seriously. Some weeks things are going well for you, some weeks they're not. [ 04-22-2004, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: awolf ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 36 | From: San Diego | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | RoCKo Member Member # 3146 Member Rated: posted 04-22-2004 01:38 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Playing Pacific Poker last night... micro .05/.10. Winning hands were almost all sets and above. A few 2 pair hands won... but never 1 pair. I played for 1 hour and saw 1) four of a kind and 1) straight flush. This is the norm that I see at the micro levels. Im wondering if MarkyMark plays at higher levels that do not have 8-10 players seeing the flop? One pair winning at micro limits is very rare. RoCKo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 730 | From: Oregon | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged | NIN Member

Member # 2551 posted 04-22-2004 01:54 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rocko - yes, the reason you see higher hands is because of more people seeing the flop and taking hands to the river. Obviously, less people is means less opportunites for the board to hit people. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2215 | From: See the warlords of a heavenly rank, and know that war is the will of god. | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged | MarkyMark Member Member # 2140 Rate Member posted 04-22-2004 04:08 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rocko, micro limit is a whole different ball game I think. basically, if you read a book that assumes a 10-20 limit game and you sit down at 0.5/1, you will get frustrated. if you really like big hands and can´t stand to lose with them, then micro limit is the worst place to be... I mostly play 1/2 or 2/4 NL and betting pre-flop gets pretty agressive there. it´s a common thing that I see one guy raising pre-flop 6xBB with AKoff, only to be re-raised to 30xBB with QQ or KK. Just yesterday, I raised with AA from early pos to 6xBB, only to get re-raised to 20xBB. I re-re-raised another 15xBB and he called. Turn came J 8 2 all of different suits. He bet out 10xBB, I went all-in, which was about 80xBB, he called, showed his pocket Ks and never hit his K, so I took down the pot. Obviously, this would have never happened in micro limit with a bunch of people in the pot.

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