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First let me say thanks to those in this forum who inspired me to move from Limit to NL. I'll never go back. I play the NL $25 and $10 NL SNG'S and have been cleaning up. Now, recently I changed my play from raising pre-flop with strong hands (especially high pairs) to limping in and the rewards have been great! Is this gonna come back to bite me? I don't do it everytime as i try to vary my play...but I have been raking in some very nice pots by not raising pre-flop letting them think I'm weak. Had a guy last night actually said I played terribly because I didn't raise pre-flop with pocket K's. He went all in (about $16)after the flop gave him top pair (jacks). He got called by me and 1 other player. He couldn't believe it when he saw my Kings. Considering I took his bank roll with that hand i thought i played it nicely. Any thoughts on Limping In vs. strong raises? thanks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 23 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | YolkyPalky

Member Member # 2603 Rate Member posted 04-06-2004 06:17 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Loonatik, you will think limping is a great strategy until the guy who limps with J7os beats you when J7 hit flop, and he otherwise woulda folded to a raise. That only needs to happen once or twice, and trust me it will if you always limp with high pocket pairs, to re-think your preflop strategy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 181 | From: San Diego, California | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged | kiyatayatit Member Member # 3443 Member Rated: posted 04-06-2004 06:21 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree, limping with big hands is very risky. However, you might have to in certain situations. For exemple, if you are in late position and everyone folds to you, you might have to limp in order to get some action. It is aggravating to have AA or KK, raise, and then having everybody fold, and end up not getting paid. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 36 | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | TheRecruit Member Member # 2953 Member Rated: posted 04-06-2004 06:29 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like to raise preflop with a strong hand. If everyone else folds, I'll gladly collect blinds. My fear is limping in with, say KK and having EVERYONE call. Someone could call with 34o and hit two pair on the flop. I've seen this happen very often. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 80 | From: Long Island, NY | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | Loonatik Junior Member Member # 2902 Rate Member posted 04-06-2004 06:30 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Yolky, didn't say I ALWAYS limp in. Just increased as of recent. Before, i hardly ever limped in just for the reasons you gave. I wanted the trash hands to fold But i was finding that they were seeing the flop anyways even after my raise. So decided to give this a shot and it's paid off big so far. I have been bitten a few times with less than great hands but i haven't lost has much by raising preflop has i've won by limping. Maybe because I can lay down a hand at the flop if it misses me. Maybe i better re-think it though. I've only tried this over the last two weeks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 23 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | rforman Member Member # 2420 Member Rated: posted 04-06-2004 06:31 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is where good players often limp in NL with big hands....when the texture of the game dictates that someone behind them will almost certainly raise. They will either let the other player thin the field and smooth call to hide their hand....or if there are a few callers behind the raiser, they might push all in and take dead money and maybe get called by a weaker hand. Limping can be a great move, but you gotta know what you are trying to do when you do it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2240 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged | CTBob Member Member # 2546 posted 04-06-2004 06:47 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by rforman: Here is where good players often limp in NL with big hands....when the texture of the game dictates that someone behind them will almost certainly raise. They will either let the other player thin the field and smooth call to hide their hand....or if there are a few callers behind the raiser, they might push all in and take dead money and maybe get called by a weaker hand. Limping can be a great move, but you gotta know what you are trying to do when you do it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like to use this play if I have AA from an early position. If there is a raise behind me, I'm gonna move in when it gets back around to me. I don't like seeing a multi-way flop with AA in NL. Far too many chances to get busted. I will happily take all the money off the table pre-flop with a big raise. I see AA as a steal

ing hand, not a playing hand. I would rather take a flop and try and bust an opponent with a drawing hand when I make the nuts. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2665 | From: Ansonia,CT,USA | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged | wasntme Member Member # 2436 Member Rated: posted 04-06-2004 06:57 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- texture of game is very important. very tight table i do sometimes limp. or short-handed. but its a gamble. I Love limping in short handed limit ring game when their has already been a raise before me. i will just smooth call, and then raise him on the turn if possible. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 430 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged | Loonatik Junior Member Member # 2902 Rate Member posted 04-06-2004 07:06 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the reply's all. Sounds like limping in can be good at times but I may be over doing it. I had, for the most part, always been the type player where I played strong when strong...and like Kiyataytit said..I wasn't getting much action. I think I was to easy to read. I Decided to try being a little different and fade weakness when strong and it's paid off. I'll back off alittle and see what the results are. thanks again -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 23 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | wasntme Member Member # 2436 Member Rated: posted 04-06-2004 07:18 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most important thing to remember is big pocket pairs go down considerably in value with each additional caller. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 430 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged | Acevader Member Member # 3464 Member Rated: posted 04-06-2004 07:46 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd say 9/10 you want to be raising good hands - its amazing how often some mug calls you anyway. The only time I'd limp with a monster (AA,KK,etc) would be I was late and someone raised already to get all the crap cards out. I'd then just call the raise and blast them at the flop if they hit top pair and I have the overcards. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 491 | From: Edinburgh (Scotland) | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | HuskerFan Member Member # 2310 Rate Member posted 04-06-2004 09:13 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- like rforman says you have to be paying attenion to the circumstances when you are limping in with any big pocket pairs...like table conditions...if you are playing NL and you see a lot of action preflop...you can really set yourself up for a big pot if your in EP with a hand like AA and you limp in and get action behind you....i typically dont like limping in LP b/c you may only get a couple of callers along with the BB and SB which could have any 2 cards...if you limp in with hands like QQ/JJ etc...and you dont get any action preflop...you have to let the flop decide your action...obviously if you flop the set...your in a great spot...if you see 1 overcard hit the board...you have to be ready to muck the hand without any temptations...it was your decision to slowplay...you cant come out firing with overcards on the board...if the board is like 349, thats a great flop for you and you need to test the waters and see what the action on the table is...i like to slowplay certain hands in certain spots and i like when my opponents see when the cards are shown...when i do slowplay and get action behind me...usually if its 1 raiser and me...i will just call...if there is a lot of action behind me and im holding AA...im gonna shoot my wad as soon as it comes back around to me...if you get action behind you and your holding aces, RAISE...you dont want to call for a multiway pot with the best hand b/c like others have said, they drop in value SIGNIFICANTLY....i love to mix it up when im playing at the same table for an extended period of time...it can be a great asset when playing against the same people (like the NL200's on PP)...you can put a little bit of fear into them b/c they never know what your holding...and thats one of the keys to NL.... [ 04-06-2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: HuskerFan ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 164 | Registered: Oct 2003 | IP: Logged | londonace Member M

ember # 3404 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 08:22 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree this can be a very valuable play at the right time. I think that it's a lot more dangerous limping in with the big hands in the lower stakes games that your talking about though, because most of the players will normally have pretty loose strategies, and you get people limping in with all kinds of hands at these stakes. I think it's definately worth mixing up your play though, but you've just got to know when someone has hit that miracle flop. Easier said than done though! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 186 | From: London, England | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | Bruce C. Member Member # 3276 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 01:30 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree that the limp or smooth call with AA or KK is a must-have tool in your workbench. But it is to be used very sparingly. The play I really don't like is smooth calling the EP raiser from anything but the button. Too many people makes AA or KK (especially) a make or break proposition--turns them into not much more than JJ or TT. Better to take the EP raiser--who is probably on QQ JJ AK or AQ, or even worse--and anyone thinking of coming in, and put them out right then and there. If someone behind you or the EP raiser comes back over the top heads up, bravo. If you think they may have AA and you have KK, then you have that ridiculous decision as to whether to lay down KK. And the answer to that one is...depends on too many things. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2855 | From: Illinois | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | Ash Junior Member Member # 3384 Rate Member posted 04-09-2004 04:44 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All depends on the table... against decent players you usually want to raise. In my home games I repeatedly see KK beat by A-bad kicker. I saw AA lose to 27os this last weekend when the ace limped the whole way and the 27 hit second pair on the river. I dont like limping in with a big pair, your chance of hitting trips is usually WAY less than the flop showing some over-cards or draws that can beat you. I would rather drive people out of the pot and win a smaller pot than have to lay down JJ, QQ, or KK later in the hand. There is NO worse feeling than checking JJ and the flop coming A,Q,anything but J or 10.... 334 players....i will have to start about 15 minutes late as I have to put my daughter to bed. I'll post each hand played (hopefully more than 1!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | superbrawl Member Member # 3289 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 05:04 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand #2 one past UTG, KQoff, limp 15, one more limper plus sb...... flop K92 rainbow...small blind bets 100, i raise 200, sb calls, turn=10, sb bets 15, i raise 150, sb calls. rriver=9, sb checks, i check. sb shows KJ Total 1355 NOw I can put her to bed! lol [ 04-07-2004, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: superbrawl ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | superbrawl Member Member # 3289 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 05:17 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First hand back...Hand#13 UTG limp with KQ off, sb calls only

flop k84, bet 40, sb folds, bb calls turn 8, bet 90, bb calls river j, bet 125 river calls winner total 1570 [ 04-07-2004, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: superbrawl ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | superbrawl Member Member # 3289 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 05:39 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand #35 Mid position, three limpers, limp 30 with 77, button raises to 125, i fold fyi...board shows 7466...lol total 1465 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | superbrawl Member Member # 3289 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 05:47 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand#42 On button, 4 limpers, call 50 flop, A 10 6 bb bets 200, i fold total 1370 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | superbrawl Member Member # 3289 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 06:01 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand# 56 blinds 25-50, One past UTG, KK, raise to 200, all fold total 1370 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | superbrawl Member Member # 3289 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 06:02 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First hour break. 57 hands, Hands won, 3% Showdowns won, 100% Flops seen, 5% total chips=1370 table avg=2087 Players remaining=160 blinds go up to 50-100 and I am bb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | superbrawl Member Member #

3289 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 06:08 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand #63 One from button, no limpers, Ah 9h, raise 350..all fold. total=1370 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | superbrawl Member Member # 3289 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 06:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand # 66 UTG As 10h, limp 100, 3 other limpers flop Jh 10s 6s, mid pos bets 100, 2 callers, i call turn 4s, mid bets 100, 1 caller, i call river 6c, mid bets 100, 1 call, i fold, mid turns over k10, caller qq.. total 1070 First poor play of tourney.....should not have called UTG...play after flop was marginal...thought about attempting steal on turn but mid pos had 4000+ chips. [ 04-07-2004, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: superbrawl ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | superbrawl Member Member # 3289 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 06:22 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand #74 mid pos, A10clubs raise to 350, next big stack raises 1500...i fold total 570 [ 04-07-2004, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: superbrawl ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | superbrawl Member Member # 3289 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 06:23 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand #75 AJoff, all in for 570, big stack calls with kq..board finds K...finish 119 Sorry I could not have provided more drama -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | JeanieJ Member Member # 3411 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 06:52 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You folded 7's to a 125 raise when you had 3000+ chips? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3553 | From: xo*Kisses*xo@PokerStars | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | kamrann Member Member # 1069 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 12:27 PM ----------------

---------------------------------------------------------------- No he had about 1400 chips. It wasn't specified whether the limpers on his right called the raise. If a couple did I would have called, with 0 or 1 caller I probably fold too. Great idea though superbrawl, to post the hands I mean. Look forward to your next commentary. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 560 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged | superbrawl Member Member # 3289 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 03:27 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More criticism would be great! Only 1 called the 125 raise. One more caller I still may have folded...two more I call. [ 04-07-2004, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: superbrawl ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 64 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | kamrann Member Member # 1069 Member Rated: posted 04-07-2004 03:54 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think as you realise, you're only mistake throughout was the ATo. I think you should have folded preflop, and even once the flop is down, at this stage of a tournament I dont think you should be overcalling with 2nd pair. Chips are too precious at this point. Other than that, good performance, things evidently just didn't really go for you as the tournament progressed. Edit: also, regarding the 77. I think in your situation, once its raised, you're in a position where it's safest to figure you're losing... even if the flop comes down 222 you're still taking a risk with all your chips if you decide to stay involved. So basically you're going to be calling just to try and hit trips. Theres no hard and fast rule for how much you should be willing to call for here. Forget pot odds themselves, more important are the implied odds (how many people are going to see the flop) and also current tournament situation (small/large stack, blinds, near to money, etc). Your fold was correct I think, although it depends if the raise was to 125 (only 95 more) or was 125 more. This sort of thing is touch and go really. Cameron [ 04-07-2004, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: kamrann ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 560 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged | JeanieJ Member Member # 3411 Member Rated: posted 04-09-2004 05:45 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 77 is a great hand to call a raise with in no limit. If your up against Aces and a rags flop nobody will suspect a set. I would never fold any pocket pair to a 125 raise with the stack you had in relation to the blinds and I might push that hand later in the tourney.
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