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so after about 2 months of ups and downs i have finally lost my 50 dollar deposit on pokerstars. i am wondering what do i do now. id like to redeposit but i also think i need to take some time and learn a little more about the game. so if someone could give a beginner some advice i would appreciate it -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 54 | From: FLORIDA | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | PsuBustaNut Member Member # 3175 Rate Member posted 03-18-2004 08:11 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First let me say that this happens to (almost) everyone from what I hear. It happened to me. Try to figure out what you did wrong, I know for me it was getting drunk and playing the tables when I should have stuck to tournaments (which I was always up or even on). You should slow down and get some books, many people on the forum can recommend some. In my first two weeks of poker I put in 50 at three different times, every time blowing it in long sessions (sometimes drinking as well) and not taking a break. Someone on here gave some great advice I was reading the other day. It went something like this: "Put in $300 (you need a decent bankroll for the swings). Really concentrate and evaluate any mistakes and hands you lose on. If you are out 300, maybe you should stop playing for a while and reevaluate playing at all. In the scheme of life 300 isn't a lot so don't sweat it if you do lose it." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 41 | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |

Rian Junior Member Member # 2183 Rate Member posted 03-18-2004 09:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think 2 months on your first $50 is excellent. I lost $50 twice in 2 days when I started playing 50 cent/dollar at Party. Then I figured I better learn how to play, and switched to .25/.50 cent at Ultimate Bet, and stayed pretty much even for a couple of months and honestly was pretty content with that. But slowly things started to make sense and lo and behold I began to steadily make money. Eventually $700 at .25/.50 cent. I then started to move up slowly to .50 cent/$1 , Now I pretty much stick at $2/4 and $10 sit n' gos. But I can honestly say after playing for 8 months I have managed to be up about $2500. I am constantly picking up things up about my game or just the game in general, and truly enjoy it. So my advice to you is as long as you enjoy it, and don't lose more than you can afford by all means continue. And eventually if you put the time in you will assuredly be a winning player. Hope this helped- [ 03-18-2004, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Rian ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 12 | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged | incoherentb Member Member # 3385 posted 03-18-2004 09:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i just put in my 50 at pokerstars today also

wish me luck! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 122 | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | TStokes Member Member # 2860 Rate Member posted 03-18-2004 09:52 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thank you all very much for all the advice. i think that im going to take a week off and really start to study the game. i have the book ken warren teaches texas hold em, is this a good book? i think after a little time off and reading ill be ready to put in 50 and get back at it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 54 | From: FLORIDA | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | Rian Junior Member Member # 2183 Rate Member posted 03-18-2004 10:31 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think for low limit hold em, "Hold Em Poker" by Sklansky and "Winning Low Limit Hold Em" by Lee Jones work really well in conjunction with one another. Their both actually fairly short and easy to read. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 12 | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged | Debaser Member Member # 1927 Rate Member posted 03-18-2004 11:06 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- take your next $50 and enter 4 $11 multi-table tournies. I only play tournies online, no ring games for me; They make me sick. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 160 | From: Florida | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged | wasntme Member Member # 2436 Member Rated: posted 03-19-2004 12:04 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- $50 is not much money to base your game on. fluctuations can account for this much money. i understand its low limit. but i really think you should deposit at least $100 if you play micro limits. i dont know. i play higher limits. and im a winning player overall. im up a significant amount. but if someone gave me $50 and said build a bankroll. heck i dont know if i could do it, even if i play tight as a virgin. thats tough. so my advice, get some more money, and then play and evaluate. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 430 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged | Jeanie Member Member # 3411 Member Rated: posted 03-19-2004 01:49 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I start with how I got started with Online poker. I had been playing at PokerStars for 6months and dropped about 800 dollars. I really didn't know what I was doing. Eventually I stopped putting money in and moved to another site (who knows why). I started playing Limit hold em' instead of no-limit. Mostly because the swings weren't as bad as some of the ones I had taken in no-limit. I moved to pacific poker. I put in 40 bucks. I started to play low limit games and losing the money. My last 20 dollars I joined a tournament. I ended up taking 1st and make around 240 dollars. So I played another tourney this time a 10 dollar one. I won that one as well building my roll to about, 370.

I started playing tables after that. 3/6 mostly. About a month after making 2 grand, I lost it. I had about a hundred dollars left in the account. I decided it was time to learn more about the game. I bought books (Super System, Poker Essays, Hold em' for advanced players, Hold em' Excellence etc..) I slowly started building my game (and my bankroll up). After the down drop, I'm up about 11,000 in three months. I think mostly what helped me was studying the game and experience. I played a lot of play money tables while learning my game strategy. To make money at this game, you need to put a lot of time and effort. Ultimatly it pays off. I wish you luck Here's a list of the authors incase you are interested in the books above. Super System (General poker book has views on hold' em' too): Doyle Brunson Hold em' for advanced players: David Sklansky Poker Essays (2 volumes) Mason Malmuth Hold Em' Excellence: Lou Kregar(Spelling) The intelligent guide to Texas Hold Em': Sam Braids If you'd like a bigger list I can make one for you. Good luck! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3238 | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | CTBob Member Member # 2546 posted 03-19-2004 01:44 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I thought online play would be easy too. I deposited $60 at Paradise Poker figuring it would be enough to kill .5/1 limit and play a few tournaments. Well I was up $30 in my first few hours of play, but gradually over the first month I was down to $8. I never won a tournament and .5/1 was killing me. Honestly Paradise .5/1 is tougher to beat than Foxwoods 2/4 or any of my home games. What made the difference for me was two things: First, Paradise just recently started offering micro-limit games. They now have .02/.04, .05/.10 He .02/.04 7-stud, and my new favorite $2 max buy-in .01/.02 NLHE. I made an honest evaluation of my play at .5/1 and the fact that my bankroll was pretty poor. Sure I could afford to deposit $1000, but I really want to work my way up by building a bankroll good enough for higher stakes. So I decided to swallow my pride and step down to .05/.1 limit. The .02/.04 is a waste of time in my opinion because it's hard to be a winner when your opponents really don't take the game seriously. It's just suckout city and the betting is often capped. It's only slightly better than play money in that respect. The .05/.1 tables are a little better and very beatable. At this stage you have a lot of calling stations so good hands can be very profitable. The play here is more like Foxwoods 2/4. Lots of calling but not much raising, although you still get idiots who raise every hand pre-flop. I really can't say enough good things about the $2 NL tables. They are great practice with a minimal possible loss. I also went out and bought Super System and even at the penny level, the concepts in that book kill the game. The opponents are so bad that I can run my $2 buy-in up to $6 on average, and I have gotten it as high as $20 on a single table. I usually play 2 or 3 of these tables at a time. Reading Super System was a big breakthrough in my NL game. The $2 tables give me hours of practice. I decided to take my newfound knowledge from the $2 tables and start entering the $5 +$1 SNG's. I'm happy to say that I am turning a nice profit there. I have only won two, but the majority of times I come in second or third. My records show that I finish in the money enough that they are profitable. As far as multis, I have mostly stepped down to the big buck +111 tourneys, and I'm happy to report that I took 27th in one and 10th in another (50 places payed) out of over 500 entrants. I also dabble in the $50 max buy-in NL tables, but since I don't have the bankroll I usually consider it a freeroll gamble. For instance, last Friday I won and placed second in two SNG's back to back, took the $40 from the tournaments and sat down at the .25/.5 NL table and turned it into $90 in about an hour.

My win rate is now beating what I could expect at .5/1 limit. I'm making on average, $4 an hour, or 4BB/hr equivalent at (.5/1). I also have found that playing multiple tables is good-you know your stock broker told you to diversify your portfolio. It's not uncommon for me to be playing a limit table, NL table, and 7-stud table simultaneously. I'm crushing the .02/.04 stud as well, often doubling my $2 buy-in. I'm the self proclaimed king of penny-ante poker at Paradise. My initial $60 deposit is up to $187.95 as of last night. I think the overall key that I found is to play games that you are comfortable with in respect to your bankroll. $60 was nowhere near enough for .5/1, and even though we're only talking $20, the psychological impact of losing 1/3 of your bankroll in a session is huge. Like I said, I can afford to deposit thousands, but I think building a bankroll and working my way up builds character and discipline. My bankroll is now enormous compared to the limits I play at, and that gives me the edge of never playing with scared money, and the confidence from having seen my initial investment triple in under three months. Same thing with the $1 tourneys. Busting out of a $5 multi is more of a significant loss with a $60 bankroll. Penny poker offers you great practice for a cheap price. A $30 bankroll will cover .05/.1. I'm beginning to learn that poker is very much about money management, how to get the most bang for your buck without playing with scared money. If it's a good, beatable game with an affordable buy-in, you are getting great +EV. Even look for freerolls with cash prizes, or very cheap satellite tournaments. You have to make your poker dollars go far. My next goal $300. Then I will step back up to .5/1 because I have a sufficient bankroll. I will also consider moving up to $10 SNG's and $5 multis. I plan to keep growing like this, once my bankroll gets close to the next highest limit, I'm gonna try moving up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2626 | From: Ansonia,CT,USA | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged | tekku7181 Member Member # 3265 Member Rated: posted 03-19-2004 03:28 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- if u just started and 50 bux lasted 2 months ur doing very good imo... i would suggest depositing a bit more and working the 2-4 or 3-6 games till u feel comfortable to move up,,,although online ppl play just as loos in 5-10 and even 10-20 games is what i found gl -- and i think that lee jones' book would be best for u to read now followed by sklansky -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 439 | From: nyc | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | Reelishymn Member Member # 3058

Rate Member posted 03-19-2004 10:57 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just lost my first $20 deposit today. That $20 lasted me about 1.5 months. I think I'll hold off for a bit, and try to learn a bit more before I make another deposit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 873 | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged | Mobywhite Member Member # 3077 Member Rated: posted 03-20-2004 10:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- $50 is great. I lost $1500 in about a month before I adjusted to online play and found the NL tables and sit-n-gos. The most important thing is keep learning and don't blow money you can't afford to lose. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 92 | From: NorCal | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged | Vivalution Member Member # 2633 Member Rated: posted 03-21-2004 03:55 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe that Super System by Doyle Brunson is a must read. The book is slightly outdated but it really gives you a strong poker foundation. The book is an easy read and covers: No Limit Hold em, Limit Hold em, 7 Card Stud, 7 Card Stud hi/lo, etc... Hold em poker for Advanced Players by David Slanksy was a great read but when I first started, it had a few adavanced plays I did not fully understand. After some more experience playing Hold em, I was able to go back through the book and truly understand the concepts discussed. That is just my two cents, and I am sure other members have more recommendations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 391 | From: Stockton, Ca, USA | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged | TStokes Member Member # 2860

Rate Member posted 03-21-2004 12:48 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thanks for all the info i will take it all into consideration and i hope to see you guys at the tables -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 54 | From: FLORIDA | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | Z Member Member # 2613 Member Rated: posted 03-22-2004 01:17 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I started out I made a popker budget of 50$ per month. The first two months I was back at playmoney after less then a week of the month. Third time I deposited I managed to hang on at 0.5-1$. I think that reading and playing for cheaps is the only way to go when you start out. 50$ might not sound like a lot, but it was I could afford with my income at the time. And no matter what anyone say, I think it is very unwise not to put your poker hobby under budgetary scrutinity. So make a deposit when you have the money, and stick to your budget.Also you should spend some money on books (I don't recommend Brunson for a beginner. Read Lee Jones, David Sklansky and Bob Ciaffone). But overall it sounds like you're doing pretty ok for a newbie, and have your mind settled on the right things for improving your game. Keep it up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1467 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged | TStokes Member Member # 2860 Rate Member posted 03-23-2004 05:19 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i was also wondering i keep hearing people discussing different limits for playing, but i am never sure wether or not they are referring to limit or no limit i enjoy playing no limit but i know in limit there is less chance of losing a lot of money. so what is the best to be playing on at this point? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 54 | From: FLORIDA | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged | DirtyDirty Member Member # 1487

Member Rated: posted 03-23-2004 05:28 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DO NOT read Brunson's Super/System until you have read plenty other books first, have more experience at the tables, and have a much greater understanding of the game...otherwise, you will have a very tough time managing to win at the lower limits where many of his concepts just do not apply. I've seen it time and time again...some newbie in a home game I'm playing in will have just read Super/System, and will essentially be an aggressive maniac...that's when the sharks circle... Read Lee Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold'Em, followed shortly thereafter by Theory of Poker...after you've read Hold'em for Advanced Players and a book or two on emotions/psychology, THEN cautiously read Brunson's book. Without first reading this other poker manuals, you will have no foundation with which to critique Doyle's concepts and/or properly integrate it into your own style of play. "Just one man's opinion" just played in a 50+5 NL SHG...and this was pulled on me....im so pissed its not funny...i removed my name from the hand...this makes me question PP.... ***** Hand History for Game 469441252 ***** 50/100 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 2805963) - Sun Mar 21 14:56:20 EST 2004 Table Table 11191 (Real Money) -- Seat 5 is the button Total number of players : 7 Seat 1: michala (2330) Seat 2: (my name) (895) Seat 4: Charlychooch (810) Seat 5: coolrussian (2815) Seat 7: Zephyr47 (440) Seat 8: leebusser (555) Seat 9: straus53 (2155) Zephyr47 posts small blind (25) leebusser posts big blind (50) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to (my name) [ Qd, Ac ] straus53 calls (50) michala folds. (my name) raises (895) to 895 (my name) is all-In. Charlychooch calls (810) Charlychooch is all-In. ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 6s, 5d, 9c ] ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4c ] ** Dealing River ** : [ 2d ] Creating Main Pot with $1745 with Charlychooch Creating Side Pot 1 with $85 with (my name) ** Summary ** Main Pot: 1745 | Side Pot 1: 85 Board: [ 6s 5d 9c 4c 2d ] (my name) balance 85, bet 895, collected 85, lost -810 [ Qd Ac ] [ high card ace -- Ac,Qd,9c,6s,5d ] Charlychooch balance 1745, bet 810, collected 1745, net +935 [ 5c 6h ] [ two pairs, sixes and fives -- 9c,6h,6s,5c,5d ] asshole calls my all in (and his whole tourney) with 6/5 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 164 | Registered: Oct 2003 | IP: Logged | YolkyPalky Member Member # 2603

Rate Member posted 03-21-2004 05:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First of all why did you remove your name from the hand, you afraid we're gonna add you to our "fish list" and hunt you down? LMAO Secondly, this type of play does make you wonder about PP. But I've become used to seeing players who call raises with chit get rewarded with miracle flops on PP. Did this guy have anything to say as to how he could call your raise with only a 65os?? Don't tell me he said "I had a feeling" or something of the sort. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 181 | From: San Diego, California | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged | bilo Member Member # 2505 Member Rated: posted 03-21-2004 05:21 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by HuskerFan: this makes me question PP.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I thought the abundace of fish at PP was common knowledge. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 809 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged | rforman Member Member # 2420 Member Rated: posted 03-21-2004 05:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While the call is questionable.....so is the preflop all in raise with AQ offsuit. I cant think of one good reason why a 4-5x bb raise here would not be sufficient. If he had called you with pocket 22 and won...would you still feel the same way???? There are very few times to voluntarily go all in preflop in NL. One might be with a short stack that is somewhere in the 5-8xbb area where you need to steal blinds and do not want to be called. The other might be when you raise with AA and get reraised....then you can come over the top knowing you have the best of it.....but still, why risk your whole stack and tournament before the flop without a made hand. I never understand why people chose to do this. You should have gotten out of this hand with 400-600 left in chips and still in the tourney assuming he would have called preflop. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2240 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged | YolkyPalky Member Member # 2603

Rate Member posted 03-21-2004 06:06 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are right Forman, going all in preflop with AQos was a bad move, it is a very beatable hand. Funny how he then cries about the play of the other guy though LOL. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 181 | From: San Diego, California | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged | herefishy Junior Member Member # 3238 Rate Member posted 03-21-2004 06:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This example is why I hate the SNG tournaments. Inevitably someone will go all-in very early, he/she will be called and someone will double up right away and be able to practically coast to the money. I've seen it more times than I care to remember. Plus, the blinds at PP go up at such a fast rate that if you aren't getting cards you can get blinded out very quickly. Why'd you go all-in pre-flop with such a lousy hand in the first place? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 21 | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged | rforman Member Member # 2420 Member Rated: posted 03-21-2004 07:03 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Herefishy....now that is exactly why I love the SnGs. First off, most people that get involved like that and double up early are also the players who get overinvolved early and may or may not give it all right back just as quickly. Most of the time, if I have a big hand early, I will coast towards the end, but most players dont have the discipline to do that....if you do, then you have an edge here. People often complain about "all-in specialists". I think you should look at it the other way around. For me, it is someone who is just dying to double me up....and I'll just wait for the right time to let him do so. Doubling up in NL is the prime objective, and there is no better candidate than that guy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2240 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged | HuskerFan Member Member # 2310 Rate Member posted 03-21-2004 07:57 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i just won b2b 50's and ive made the money 6of7 today...so im feeling a little (ok a LOT) better... 1st off...i am one of the tightest players at the SNG's...usually i wont play a hand early on...but only the top 3 positions pay...and the top 3 in this tourney were all over 2100+chips already...the blinds were about to go to 50/100 and I needed to do something soon...i was hoping to steal the blinds and get my stack over 1000...i would have settled for a race if someone had called with a small PP...even 22 that woulda been fine......i can see where many would think the ALL IN is stupid...thats ok...maybe it was rash...i just wanted to pick up a pot im over it now.....FWIW the guy said he hit the wrong button...maybe it was true..but i cant see calling your all in with 65.....i do very well at PP/Empire...that was just the 1st time...where i was blindsided by a trash hand and it made even me wonder... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 164 | Registered: Oct 2003 | IP: Logged |

wasntme Member Member # 2436 Member Rated: posted 03-21-2004 08:33 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You guys are acting like he made the worst move of all time. the real question is what was the idiot thinking making that call? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 430 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged | rforman Member Member # 2420 Member Rated: posted 03-21-2004 09:19 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was far from the worst move of all time...and I don't mean to imply that. My point was that yes...the other player made a poor call, but that I disagreed with the way the hand was played and I see players make those kind of mistakes all of the time. Im in a sng right now and with the blinds at 15/30 a guy moved in preflop for about 1100...everyone folded and he showed AA, like he was proud that he got them and proud that he won the 45 in blinds...I almost was laughing outloud. I think Husker got my point...and I did get his point about the blinds about to double...etc. I just really feel that the preflop all in move was not the best move in that situation, and if Husker agreed with me...maybe he would make a better decision next time faced with a similar dilemma. Just here to learn and help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2240 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged | incoherentb Member Member # 3385 posted 03-22-2004 01:04 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- well the flop has just as good chance to flop low cards as it is high cards, and this time it flopped low cards.

i dont see anything amazing about it. and yah dont play PP, heard way to many horror stories! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 122 | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | CTBob Member Member # 2546 posted 03-22-2004 12:00 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was playing a SNG at Paradise last night and I got my first good cards AKo. The blinds were 15/30 and it was folded to me. I open raised for 150 and got one caller. The button moved all-in on me. I folded and the original caller went all-in. What did the button have? He had AJo. The other guy had 66. So I agree that the problem is that most of these players have no idea what an all in hand is, they are just dying to double up. The nice thing was about that hand an A flopped but then a 6 fell on the turn, and Mr all-in was all out. Made me feel a little better about the 150 chips I just pissed away. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2691 | From: Ansonia,CT,USA | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged | wasntme Member Member # 2436 Member Rated: posted 03-22-2004 04:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by rforman: It was far from the worst move of all time...and I don't mean to imply that. My point was that yes...the other player made a poor call, but that I disagreed with the way the hand was played and I see players make those kind of mistakes all of the time. Im in a sng right now and with the blinds at 15/30 a guy moved in preflop for about 1100...everyone folded and he showed AA, like he was proud that he got them and proud that he won the 45 in blinds...I almost was laughing outloud. I think Husker got my point...and I did get his point about the blinds about to double...etc. I just really feel that the preflop all in move was not the best move in that situation, and if Husker agreed with me...maybe he would make a better decision next time faced with a similar dilemma. Just here to learn and help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i agree with you 100%. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 430 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged | Jeanie Member Member # 3411 Member Rated: posted 03-22-2004 05:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All in with AQ huh, you are a 61% favorite before the flop. If I have seen you make raises with this trash before I may call your all in with a marginal hand as you probably wouldnt push with a high pp. My 2 cents is you deserved to lose. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3356 | From: xo*Kisses*xo@PokerStars | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged | rodgepodge Member Member # 951 Rate Member posted 03-22-2004 09:02 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You both deserve to lose. All in with AQo to win 75 chips.....why? Call with 65o!!!!!!! Terrible play by both of you. I really don't know what else to say
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