Professional Online Poker Players
Looking for some professional online poker players? Check out: Poker Professionals
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
I did this just last week. Gift-2-go was rejected. I called the company to check the balance and make sure it was purchased correctly, and the recording stated as of 7/10 their cards were no longer accepted at gaming sites. I picked up an all-access Visa gift card, and it worked. You can go watch poker professionals using all to the all-access website and find a location near you Jerry Yang Pokerwhere it can be purchased.
I found a couple allaccess gift cards that had been given to me for a gift a while back. They are activated per the web site and have the funds but I cannot deposit to epassporte or stars.
I'm going to be at SDSU for a couple months this summer so I figured I'd look for some card rooms in the area. The Lucky Lady Card Room is only about a mile away. Has anyone been there? How are the limit hold'em games? How easy is it to get 8/16 or something higher going?
buy in is a minimum of 150$$$ but for shits and giggles lets say this: you are in the 2004 wsop tourney: you cant wait... you take your seat your in 4th position 3 pl fold. you look down and see AA: you raise 200: guy in 8th pos reraises all in: what do you do?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
sothys
Junior Member
Member # 3199
Rate Member posted 02-19-2004 09:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
im quite a new online player, and still in learning process.
after reading your post a few times, i take it that its the first hand being dealt, so theres 10 people at the table. SB and BB would proberly fold to his all-in. That leaves you and him. (assuming that 5 6 and 7th player folded)
And you have the best ofstart hand compared to him. Odds is you win if you call.
Still its the first hand, you could be 200 down, and regroup for the next match, still i would put him on AK, KK og QQ, all cases you have the better hand. Imho.
I'd call him.
(newbie getting ready to learn why he is wrong, me that is)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 28 | From: denmark | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
brucey
Member
Member # 2616
Rate Member posted 02-19-2004 09:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
only one thing to do....ALL IN!!!...everytime
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 33 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
brian
Member
Member # 3005
Rate Member posted 02-19-2004 09:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes its the first hand and yes everyone folds... funny thing i ask this because as i was waiting for a live tourney i asked the same question to this guy.. "would you ever fold pocket aces" and he said depends the circumstances. well im fortunately at his table, and first hand is being dealt he calls an all in( he had pocket aces) and he lost to pocket queens.. i looked at him and said thats pretty damn weird... anyways.... to answer my own question.... never will i ever go all in pre-flop until mid rounds when i know the other ,players.. anyone can get lucky.. theres no skill using LL IN PRE FLOP theory until you know the person..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 02-28-2004 06:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well ive heard it all now, i cant beleive your asking if you would call an all in bet pre flop with aa, i think we all know what should be done , its n
ot even a question that really needs answered.
I think when someone said they might fold poket aces they didnt mean pre flop, obviously theres times when a fold is needed in play, but thats up to u not to get in that position if possible.
basically , dont be silly call all in every time pre flop with aa.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
hiercards
Member
Member # 3214
Rate Member posted 02-28-2004 06:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AA in pocket pre-flop..
NO QUESTION call that all in...
Why not, luck. Shit.
AA, not much better pre-flop lol..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 88 | From: Ft Collins Colorado | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
danjackson
Member
Member # 3017
posted 02-29-2004 07:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how could you not call that?? You basically have the nuts before the flop.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 65 | From: SoCal | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
uwstud
Member
Member # 1645
Rate Member posted 02-29-2004 02:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
never will i ever go all in pre-flop until mid rounds when i know the other ,players..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That comment makes no sense when holding pocket rockets. How would this change ur decision. It shouldnt matter what type of player this person is, how well you know their playstyle. The fact is, at worse, you are tied with the person preflop.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 105 | From: madison | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged |
Shooter44
Member
Member # 2746
Rate Member posted 02-29-2004 04:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
brian,
Yes, there is a time when you might want to fold pocket rockets pre-flop, but it isn't at the begginning of the tourny. However if you were at the final table with the smallest stack you might. Suppose there are five players, all others have around 500K and you are in the BB with 30K (for an extreme example). The UTG player goes all in, and everyone else calls. You realize that if you win you will only have 150K against the second place winner who will have a huge stack. However it's also very likely that with 4 callers you could lose, and finish in 5th place. By folding you would move up probably 1-3 places. In the WSOP that could mean the difference between a something like a 150k payday and a million dollar win. So the correct thing would be to fold AA.
Early on, if you won't call a single player's all in with AA, you may as well not bother to play at all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 904 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
Putte
Member
Member # 3267
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 08:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its a tricky question. Go All-in from the start is not a good strategy no matter what cards you have preflop. NL-tournament isnīt about playing your cards, its about playing your opponents.
In this case, you dont know anything about what he plays. Of course you are at least 50-50, but what do you win ? You double up if you win, but at this stage of the tournament it is not important. You have got to stay alive, thats all that matters early on in the tournament.
If you ask the big pros, I think most of them will fold, simply because they know they can outplay the other players later on and not put all their money in the pot straight away.
I would probably fold, and then I would easily outplay him later on i the tournament if he acctually is the "gambler" he looks to be with an all-in move like that. Stay alive and outplay them later on. Thats probably the best way to do it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 135 | From: Home | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP
: Logged |
feverpa
Member
Member # 3217
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 09:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Putte...
What everyone else is saying is correct... EXCEPT for the fact, that playing the odds only applies when you can play the odds over such a long period of time as to make it profitable in the long run... A tournament is not a long enough period of time to leave every hand to the odds... that is why some people don't want to go all in with a middle pocket pair against two overcards... the pocket pair is a statistical favorite, but the point to making that play in a non-tournament is that over the lifetime of poker you'll play, you'll win a lot of money... but in a tournament, all that matters is that you don't lose an all in...
In a tournament... I want a chance to PLAY poker... and by PLAY, I mean the chance to fold the right hands.. play the right hands... raise the right hands... make the big laydowns when necessary, and make the right all-in calls...
by putting you entire tournment in the hands of lady luck on the FIRST hand is foolish... unless you have no business being in that tournament...
If you have no poker skill... then go for it.. but do you think Helmuth, or Ivy would take a dice roll to be out of the tournament on the first hand... no.. they have enough skill to make up the 200 bucks they'll lose on this hand... and much more... but PERFECT poker won't bring you back from dead when you realize the guy was going all in with J-Tsuited... and flop comes JTT.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 1029 | From: sitting next to Jesus in the Fridge | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 09:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hhmmmm, this is a strange issue , your now sayingt that a world champion would not call an all in raise with aa.........how the did they become world champion in the first place ??
I'm gonna go through my dvd's now and find such a situation to prove it, poker is a game of skill as we all know but surely as mention above your even at worst and usuallt a decent favorite.
therefore i think it would be foolish not to call an all in raise PRE-FLOP maybe this means i have no poker skill and do rely on lady luck but i seem to make a living playing the way i do as for hellmuth calling of course he would man !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
PokerAngel
Member
Member # 2702
Member Rated:
posted 03-01-2004 11:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian et al,
1st hand or last hand - you go all-in and are grateful for the opportunity to do so. And yes, I have seen world champions do so. Incidentally, Daniel Negreanu and Phil Ivey both were knocked out on day 1 of the 2003 WSOP with AA when they went all in. Day 1 or hand 1 makes no difference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 414 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Putte
Member
Member # 3267
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 11:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course you can go all-in on the first day. But in your example with Ivey and Danny, you dont mention how they were doing up to that point. How much did they have in chips ? Thats the key-question. All-in on the first hand preflop is NEVER a good play. Everyone who really knows how to play tournament poker knows this. Ivey would never call all-in preflop in that position. You are the favourite, but you lose everything if you get unlucky. Thats poor tournament play. The difference between tournament play and ring games are BIG.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 135 | From: Home | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
theoeiii
Member
Member # 2852
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 11:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you people talking about? I wouldn't fold in a million years with AA. First day, last day, 10 people at the table or 1 other. Not a chance.
If you double up with AA on the first hand, you won't have to play anything but the best 5 hands for the next 24 hours at the tourney. It'd be the best thing that could ever happen. Some idiot takes a chance at the blinds on the first hand, you jump for joy and call. NO QUESTION.
So what if you're at the final table and 4 others put you all in? Are you there to sneak into third place and get blinded out, or are you there to make history, win a bracelet, get your picture on the wall with the best in the world, write a book, and never work again? If you win, you quadruple up. If you lose, so what, you still got to the final table and made $100K.
No brainer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 41 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
PokerAngel
Member
Member # 2702
Member Rated:
posted 03-01-2004 11:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Putte,
You're wrong on this one - at least how you believe that pro's will play. Now I'll give you that maybe you have discovered some great new way to play and we have been wrong up until this point but I guarantee you that none other than T.J. Cloutier has gone bust on the very first hand of a tournament with pocket aces - I was at the table behind him and teased him about it for the next three days.
As far as "how much Daniel N and Phil I had.." it's a moot point - they went busted. Therefore they had less than the people who put them in. If they are willing to go all-in pre-flop against a bigger stack - then they would be willing to go all-in against an equal stack during the first hand. This, unless you are suggesting that either one of them were in chip trouble - which they were not.
[ 03-01-2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: PokerAngel ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 414 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
CTBob
Member
Member # 2546
posted 03-01-2004 11:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm leaning toward fold. I was in a similar situation with KK. I'm on the button in the very first hand of the tourney ($65 buy in NL at Foxwoods). I look at my cards and see wired kings and think to myself that this tournament is getting off to a good start. Four players limp in front of me. I raise it to 200. Everyone folds around to the cutoff. He looks at his cards for a bit, and then he re-raises all-in. I call without much of a thought, figuring if he had AA he would have raised already. Turns out he has AQo. I'm ahead until he rivers an ace. I had the second best starting hand, and I end up finishing in 200th place with it.
This early in the tournament, I don't like to gamble over what essentially could be a coin toss.
I don't have much tournament experience, but what experience I have is all at low buy in games where there is a lot of dead money. My strategy is to sit tight and let the idiots knock themselves out. I will only play hands where I am in control. I really don't like to call all-ins unless I know that I have the player beat (e.g the turn makes my opponent a straight, but it's the third of a suit that makes my flush). Other than that, if I'm going all-in, I like to be the one putting my opponent to the decision, not the other way around.
In the situation mentioned here, I probably would fold and pick a better spot. On the other hand, if my opponent re-raised less than all-in, I would quickly go all-in, putting him to the decision.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 2627 | From: Ansonia,CT,USA | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
unlucky bob buts thats not the discussion here, if u had aa there you would have won so its not really relevent here, kk is not an unbeatable hand pre flop where aa is therefore if you lay it down thats acceptable in my book theres always an over card out there somewhere waiting to make you cringe !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
brian
Member
Member # 3005
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so let me get this straight. best pre flop hand always wins? you might be a 81% favorite and end up still losing. personally i like to play it safe, i like to smooth call slow play ppl rather then be the aggressor.. 2002 superbowl rams vs pats... rams favorite by 14 no way they could lose, best team ever assembled, bill worked very hard on a very good game plan on stopping them and he succeeded. my game plan is not to ever go all in especially first hand....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
PokerAngel
Member
Member # 2702
Member Rated:
posted 03-01-2004 12:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob,
Tough break but it is often correct to throw KK away pre-flop early in a tournament. Against AQs (not one of the suits you hold) it is a 2.1:1 favorite, which is not commanding enough to warrent going broke in most cases.
On the other hand, AA has the most trouble with JTs where it is still a 78.25% favorite (3.6:1) though most people are not going to go all-in on the first hand of a major tournament without a pocket pair - against KK, aces are a 81.25% favorite (4.3:1)which are more than double the odds that one can get against a trouble hand if you are holding KK.
You said you don't want to gamble over what could essentially be a coin toss - if you are holding AA - it never will be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 414 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
oh yeah brian i see how the superbowl is just like callin an allin with aa pre folp, noones saying that the best odds pre flop wins but if you dont play these hands youre losing the chance to win why throw away what at the time is unbeatable
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
theoeiii
Member
Member # 2852
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who folds AA preflop in ANY situation whatsoever, are contributors as to why the game of poker is so damn soft right now.
Poker 101 - PUT YOUR MONEY IN WHEN YOU HAVE THE BEST HAND
CT - we're talking AA, not KK. KK is a different story, especially with a call-raiser. That's dangerous for sure. Since I know you play at Foxwoods, I have to tell you this. The $4/$8 down there was RIPE this weekend and last. My budding and I fleeced it for about $1,200 between the two of us, in 3 days.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 41 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
brian
Member
Member # 3005
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if your disclipined, patient and skilled you will almost always succeed. never rush into thinggs... and yes i was making a simple analogy id hope you would walk into a tournament with a gameplan. im sorry but for 10 grand first hand im getting my moneys worth and sticking to my gameplan, i would gladly flip my hand over and say nice bet. then id work from there on tricking ppl.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
PokerAngel
Member
Member # 2702
Member Rated:
posted 03-01-2004 12:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From "Pot Limit and No-Limit Poker" by Stewart Reuben and Bob Ciaffone, the best big bet poker book on the market:
Chapter 30 Tournament Strategy pg 163
"A good player usually approaches tournament play with an entirely different attitude than the survivalist. If he is going to finish out of the money, he would prefer to bust out early. "Time equals money," as the saying goes..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 414 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
PokerAngel
Member
Member # 2702
Member Rated:
posted 03-01-2004 12:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and... same page 163:
"There are some tournament players...their goal is to see how long they can last 'playing with the big boys.' (re: get their moneys worth) You should exploit this attitude in an opponent by bullying him with your chi
ps, to put it bluntly."
This is not a new conversation. This subject has come up innumerable times on rpg and elsewhere and has been exhaustive and exhausting - the best poker minds alive say and have said in these discussions (which are archived somewhere) that there are times to throw away AA pre-flop but the list of exceptions does not include "it's the first hand of a tournament".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 414 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
brian
Member
Member # 3005
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so let me ask you poker angel would you throw away AA first hand after you paid 10 grand for a tourney?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
Peter M
Junior Member
Member # 3270
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly can't believe what I am reading here.
Not that it upsets me, by any means! I am glad that there are so many people that actually believe there is a time when you should fold AA preflop. Fact is, there is not. NOPE, NO WAY, NO HOW, NEVER EVER EVER.
The best any player can do is put all of his opponents money in when you are the favorite... this is obvious. there is NO TIME when you are not the favorite with this hand... EVER.
If you can't see that AA is a sure call against one or two or 5 opponents all in preflop, send me your email address so we can play some cards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 4 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
theoeiii
Member
Member # 2852
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the cost matters to you, then maybe you shouldn't be playing at that level. If scared money causes you to fold AA preflop, the cost is forcing you to play poorly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 41 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
brian
Member
Member # 3005
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry peter theres different situations... aa all in preflop on a 10 dollar rebuy tourney hell yeah but theres limitations..... my email address is bgartman21@yahoo.com id gladly play cards with you anyday... (tuff guy)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
PokerAngel
Member
Member # 2702
Member Rated:
posted 03-01-2004 12:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian,
No. Unless I knew I was being cheated there is no way I would throw away aces pre-flop on the first hand of a tournament regardless of how much I paid to get in. I shall probably play in the championship event of this years WSOP and I sincerely hope I get the opportunity to prove it to you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 414 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
brian
Member
Member # 3005
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hmmmm cost scare me no. but the pros and cons doo.
5 day tourney .. day 1 1st hand all in: pros: i double up and can relax... negatives: i dont even have to go there.. i caN DOUBle up on numerous hands
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
brian
Member
Member # 3005
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well PA me 2 ill be there well have to chat....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
PokerAngel
Member
Member # 2702
Member Rated:
posted 03-01-2004 12:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter,
Actually there are some obscure occasions when throwing AA away pre-flop becomes correct - so the "NOPE, NO WAY, NO HOW, NEVER EVER EVER" is in need of very minor modifications. For instance: You are in a super-satellite that is 5 handed and they pay 4 spots. UTG is the chip leader and goes all-in and is called by two spots before it gets to you, then it is correct to throw away aces. Obviously this doesn't come up very often but there are spots.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 414 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Peter M
Junior Member
Member # 3270
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I must agree with Theoeiii. If you fold this because of money, the move down, you are playing too high. Let's get back to basics here folks. The initial post said that one person was all in against him. This thread has definately taken some interesting tangents, but seriously, can you realistically argue that it is improper to go all in against one opponent with AA preflop? thats just ludicrous! there is never a time when you will be even CLOSE to a coin toss, you are always the decided favorite, by at least 4 to 1. Those are the situations in poker that you dream about, not the ones that are tough decisions.
And for the record, feel free to meet up with Theoeiii and I for a game anytime you feel like it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 4 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Peter M
Junior Member
Member # 3270
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 12:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok poker angel, that is the one time. I concede that point.
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 4 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
PokerAngel
Member
Member # 2702
Member Rated:
posted 03-01-2004 12:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter,
I certainly agree with your gist - but being the anal math guy around these parts (went to Philips Exeter around *your* parts and got my degree in math later),
you can be less than a 4:1 favorite with AA if you are up against a hand like JTs (3.6:1) although it wouldn't likely happen that they would be pushing all their chips in with this hand on the first hand.
Anyway, little technicality.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 414 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Peter M
Junior Member
Member # 3270
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 01:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was referring to that hand, actually, but i thought it was 4.6:1. I just checked it out too, u are right of course.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 4 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
feverpa
Member
Member # 3217
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 02:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK... let me add a little nuance to the conversation... I was one who said I probably would fold because it was first hand of tourney..
I don't disagree with any point to the contrary that has been made... I understand the odds.. the advantage... and understand that it shouldn't be a matter of being afraid to lose that large entry on one hand...
here is the point though... the pros... the ones who play those tournaments over and over and over... are absolutely right to take advantage of a play where the odds are with them, but that they'll lose occasionally... (.. meaning give up control of the hand before you've seen anything other than your two cards)...
I'm trying to teach my dad to play, and I tell him over and over to make the plays that he has an advantage in... and over time it will work out in his favor... and I tell him not to chase tempting bad bets because over a long period of time, it will cost you money...
that is the thought proces behind "never" fold pocket ACES....
but if I'm in that tournament... and don't regularly have a chance to play in that tournament.. I still fold, because I don't want to miss out on finding out how well I can play... and if lady luck decides to spit in my face... that is exactly what might happen if I call.. there will be plenty of time to call an all in... make an all in move... etc... but I just want to have a chance to play...
I now agree that the pros wouldn't fold.. but they'll be back... this is just one hand in 5 million for them, and they're playing the odds... I just don't want to leave it up to chance that early... most of us NON-Pros would likely agree..
I would feel worse going to a huge event and being out on first hand with pocket aces... than surviving for severl hours... or a full day.. then busting out in middle position with no winnings... I'm there for the experience... and to do as well as I can...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 1029 | From: sitting next to Jesus in the Fridge | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
Putte
Member
Member # 3267
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 02:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Difference of opinion. Thats all. Double up directly with the risk of going out. Or fold AA. It all depends on the situation for me. If I am playing a small tourney, say 10 players. I am all-in directly. Why ? Because it gives me a commanding position. If I play att WSOP with 700 others. I am going to fold. Why ? Because if I double up at the first hand, it puts me NOWHERE. The tournament hasnīt even begun, and I am putting all my chips in there.
You fail to see the big picture here. Theres a risk to everything at poker unless you have the stonecold NUTS. Do you want to take that risk at the first hand, when even if you win the hand has probably increased your chance to win the 700 people tournament by 0.00001 % ?
I dont fail to see that I am perhaps 85 % favourite to win the hand, but I am stating this:
The risk, lets say it is 10 %, that I will acctually go out, is not worth taking when the pot you will win is so low.
When the blinds go up, thats when you can go all-in preflop, but to do it when blinds are low and the pot is nothing, thats just bad tournament strategy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 135 | From: Home | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Flop no help
Member
Member # 2950
Rate Member posted 03-01-2004 02:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AA pre flop is a huge favorite and you probably should call but bad things can happen. I played in online tourney at UB this past Saturday. Second hand and I'm dealt AA. The player right in front of me goes all in pre-flop. I call instantly, didn't even consider not calling. He has KK. He catches the third K on the turn and I'm history. The stakes were low, no big deal, but there is a huge element of luck, no matter how good the carsds or how good you are.
sorry deleted it as i dont want to do it any1 else can organise it please include me !
thankyou
[ 03-05-2004, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: aplayer ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
Mobywhite
Member
Member # 3077
Member Rated:
posted 03-02-2004 09:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm in. Buy in is fine. Sometime between 10AM and 3PM PST would be best for me. But I can probably accomodate other times.
[ 03-02-2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Mobywhite ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 92 | From: NorCal | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-02-2004 09:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok moby first of many hopefully m8. good luck
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
maxucsd
Member
Member # 2477
Rate Member posted 03-03-2004 01:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry, maybe I missed this somewhere, but what site? Buy in is fine for me, any time will probably work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 95 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
stphys
Member
Member # 2411
Rate Member posted 03-03-2004 02:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Awesome, I'm in. I'll play anytime Sunday, although I'd rather not wake up early.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 65 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
Hawk_1MG
Junior Member
Member # 3101
Rate Member posted 03-03-2004 10:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Send me an invite please. Anytime on Sunday that's not really early or really late.
Thanks,
^Hawk^
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 7 | From: Tinley Park, IL | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
wildbillhickok
Member
Member # 2679
posted 03-03-2004 04:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...i'm in, anytime Sunday after 8 a.m PST
What site?? PS or UB???
olehickok@hotmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 479 | From: phoenix,az,usa | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-03-2004 06:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'll post all the details here aswell as emailing or sending private messages to all wjho are playing , explaining all.
just need more players to show an interest first.
to be honest i thought there would have been more replies by now.
so come on people lets find out how good the members on here really are !!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
wildbillhickok
Member
Member # 2679
posted 03-04-2004 02:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...they're probably not noticing this post...find that older post where we all talking about it and start new post with catch title...
ex
"Let's all play Tourny together!" or something similar...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 479 | From: phoenix,az,usa | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
uwstud
Member
Member # 1645
Rate Member posted 03-04-2004 03:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i honestly think $50 will turn ppl away as well. IMO the interest in the tourney was to play with forum members, more for shits and giggles. i actually think ppl will be playing seriously enough regardless of the buy in just so they have some bragging rights for a few days I think a 20-30 dollar buyin would get more responses, but again thats just my opinion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 105 | From: madison | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged |
Geri_T
Member
Member # 2816
Rate Member posted 03-04-2004 04:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It sounds like fun to me and I would be able to attend if it were held in the evening (eastern time) as I work on Sundays. Whatever details you have please send them along or just post them here. uwstud also made a good point about the cost. The lower the better would probably be the best way to go as it is intended to be more of a social event than anything else. It would also be good to let us know what site will be used so that those of us who might not already be registered there will have time to do so and to make a deposit. Thank you for taking the time to arrange this. Geri
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 190 | From: Rhode Island | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
Z
Member
Member # 2613
Member Rated:
posted 03-04-2004 04:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I might be around, depending on how my live game works out this weekend. But it is to start no later then 16 EST if I'm to play in it. I hate playing all nighters, being in Europe.
But sure. Good initiative.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 1467 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Eager Beaver
Member
Member # 2033
Member Rated:
posted 03-04-2004 04:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll play, don't care too much about the time, but it has to be on a major site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 4
27 | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged |
BiNgOsHaDo
Member
Member # 2496
Member Rated:
posted 03-04-2004 05:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will definitely play... Need all the info though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 567 | From: Bremerton, WA USA | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
NiHeraNeSsu
Member
Member # 1738
Member Rated:
posted 03-04-2004 05:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm in - great initiative. Any time on Sunday.
mike_gelperin@msn.com
The same nick - NiHeraNeSsu on any site.
[ 03-04-2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: NiHeraNeSsu ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 440 | From: Brooklyn,NY,US | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-04-2004 06:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok starting to bet a bit more ineresest now at last.
www.tournamentnetwork.com when u sign up you
just need to put my name in aplayer
thats so you can be at the tournament table.
the time thing im still working on, trying to suit as many as possible so waiiting for more intrest, least you can join and get used to the software now, its the only site that can accomodate us as pokerstars (1st choice) dont do it anymore, still its ok there and very secure.
ok get yourselves used to the rooms and i look forward to beating you all there soon oopps meeting you there soon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-05-2004 01:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
come on people i wanna see some money where the mouths are, its a great chance to play against every1 here so come on get posting here !!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
Thice
Junior Member
Member # 2636
Rate Member posted 03-05-2004 03:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can i play, in this tourney. buy in sounds good to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 30 | From: melrose, Ma, usa | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
wasntme
Member
Member # 2436
Member Rated:
posted 03-05-2004 04:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
aplayer:
i dont think any of us are interested in playing a tourament at a site we have never even heard of. at least i know im not. im under the impression that your only interested in SPAM-ing the boards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 430 | Registered: Nov 2003 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-05-2004 04:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok wasntme u got nothing better to do than give negative feedback, you tit. i guess some are interested though ehh, plus its the only place to hold private tournaments now as i said pokerstars was first choice and bigger sites came later here was the reply from poker starts.
Hello Tony,
We have received, over the last few months, a veritable tidal wave of
requests for private tournaments and cash games. Given that, we're
going to suspend doing *any* private events (except those for which we
have a prior commitment) until we can review the whole process and
decide exactly how to proceed with them.
Please accept our apologies for not doing your cash game at this time.
When we have reviewed the private event situation in detail and have a
reasonable plan for doing them, we'll consider all offers.
Again, thank you for your interest and thank you for playing at
PokerStars.
Best regards,
Rob
PokerStars Support Team
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
brains
Member
Member # 2055
Member Rated:
posted 03-05-2004 04:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by wasntme:
aplayer:
i dont think any of us are interested in playing a tourament at a site we have never even heard of. at least i know im not. im under the impression that your only interested in SPAM-ing the boards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well said Wasntme, I am in total agreement with you. Personally I wouldn't trust this guy as far as I could throw him.
[ 03-05-2004, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: brains ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 381 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-05-2004 04:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
firstly this wasn't even my idea brains it was brought up by other members weeks ago, i just decided to try and sort it out , and as for the site that was also recommended by forum members not by me, id never heard of it either until then, but checked it out and it seems ok.
i really cant wait until my sites finished with all the articles and info tne'll be just so i may get an apology or 2 for negative folk like yourselves.
oh yeah brains do you do any live play mate cause chance are if you do you probably know me seeing as theres not that many players in the uk circuit??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
brains
Member
Member # 2055
Member Rated:
posted 03-05-2004 06:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by aplayer:
firstly this wasn't even my idea brains it was brought up by other members weeks ago, i just decided to try and sort it out , and as for the site that was also recommended by forum members not by me, id never heard of it either until then, but checked it out and it seems ok.
i really cant wait until my sites finished with all the articles and info tne'll be just so i may get an apology or 2 for negative folk like yourselves.
oh yeah brains do you do any live play mate cause chance are if you do you probably know me seeing as theres not that many players in the uk circuit??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am sure that the chance at getting loads of referral bonuses didn't influence you one bit when you decided to set this up.
Yes, I play live games, but I am actually located in Northern Ireland and haven't been to any casinos in England, so sadly we probably haven't crossed paths.
When you actually "finish" your site, will the spam from you on this forum actually increase?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 381 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-05-2004 06:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no i doubt i'll stop spam when my sites done m8 used this for gathering info and got a lot from here thanks , however i dont get a referal bonus it just sets up private games. ok listern brains, if your well known here which im sure you are, and would like to play against other tournament members then any chance you or someone else who will get a better response can organise it, ive tried my best but people like yourselvers arent helping.
any1 fancy trying to set it up ??
thanks
tony
[ 03-05-2004, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: aplayer ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
brains
Member
Member # 2055
Member Rated:
posted 03-05-2004 07:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by aplayer:
........www.tournamentnetwork.com when u sign up you
just need to put my name in aplayer..........
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No of course you are not looking for a referral bonus.
Like others, I would only have been interested in a forum tournament if it was held at a well-known site, but since it seems this is no longer possible, it doesn't appeal to me. Sorry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 381 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged |
Eager Beaver
Member
Member # 2033
Member Rated:
posted 03-05-2004 08:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.tournamentnetwork.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would not consider this a major site. Maybe the idea just won't work out. I would want to be on Stars, UB, Pardise, Party, or maybe even Pacific or Planet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 427 | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged |
Dead Money
Junior Member
Member # 2785
Member Rated:
posted 03-06-2004 12:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would have to agree that aplayer does seem to be out for himself. I was the one who originally said we could probably have it at TournamentNetwork.com. He must have contacted them himself. Not that I really care. I think this could be a lot of fun no matter who sets it up.
That being said, I have played there a few months now without problem. I have won real money in freerolls and cashed out with out problem. I know none of the huge poker sites will host a tournament for us, so it does see
m a reasonable option. I would still like to see this happen one way or another.
Any thoughts?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 11 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
Mobywhite
Member
Member # 3077
Member Rated:
posted 03-07-2004 06:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aplayer was not the one who suggested the tournament. He was however, the only person who took the initiative to put one together.
I've read that the major sites do not allow private tournaments. If so, then is the site he picked any worse than than most of them out there? I just spent five minutes going through it. It seems to be professional.
Who cares if he gets a referral bonus from the site. It does not cost you anything and he did spend the time putting this together.
I, like most people here, am not willing to open another account however. It is a shame, it would have been fun to play against some of the other posters here.
Thanks for trying Aplayer. Maybe in the future one of the major sites will allow this kind of tournament.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 92 | From: NorCal | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
magpie36
Junior Member
Member # 3206
Rate Member posted 03-07-2004 07:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i have to agree i do belive aplayer has been using this site a little to much for spam, but i feel this was a genuine attempt by the lad to get a forum tourney going.
i for one will say thanks for the effort m8
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 5 | From: uk | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
DirtyDirty
Member
Member # 1487
Member Rated:
posted 03-07-2004 07:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fellas-take it easy on aplayer!
First off, it wasn't his idea...neither the tourney itself, nor the site where the tourney was to be played. I had originally wanted the tourney to be played at Pokerstars, but you can see from a previous post their reply (I received the exact same response, word for word, as aplayer did). Aplayer has been gracious enough to exert his time and energy into setting this up...whether he does it out of genuine spirit of competition or for his own gain, who cares?!?! The idea would be followed through...
I am going to check out the interface of the projected tourney site, and then I plan on depositing some cash into the site so that I can take part in this tourney...it'll be fun, there will be cash to be won, and there will be some bragging rights on the line.
-DirtyDirty-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 469 | From: Atlanta, GA, United States | Registered: Mar 2003 | IP: Logged |
brains
Member
Member # 2055
Member Rated:
posted 03-07-2004 08:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.thepokerforum.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001077
Aplayer has apologised on this thread and said he will no longer spam the forums, which I accept and was not going to mention it again, but I will explain why I posted against him on this and other threads.
He hadn't been spamming the forum "a little", he had been spamming it A LOT, if you only visit the forum occasionally you may not notice as most of his threads get deleted after a while. Last night for example he had opened 2 separate threads,each with his own affiliate links - both now deleted. I also discovered through another poster that he had also been sending private messages with his affiliate link to new members with a welcome message, I assume he was trying to make it appear as though it came from this site.
This endangers the site and is why he has bothered myself and others so much and why we were instantly against him on this idea. I accept that he put the effort in, but he didn't do it solely out of the kindness of his heart(although I might accept that this was part of the reason). He did look to get referral bonuses by asking that people put his name down and he did this by saying that people needed to do this to get into the tournament (which is not true) rather than being up front about it. He also vouched for the site in question ("its ok there and very secure") when I believe in fact he knows very little about the site, just to get as many people as possible.
I would have only been interested in a tournie at a well-known site and would not have even posted on this thread if another genuine member was trying to set it up at the same site and even if they asked people to put his name down for the bonus. However, I resented the fact that it was this guy trying to suck more money out of the forum.
I apologise if I seemed negative and harsh to Aplayer, but I didn't like seeing someone get away with what i felt was taking advantage of this forum and its members.
[ 03-07-2004, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: brains ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 381 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged |
DirtyDirty
Member
Member # 1487
Member Rated:
posted 03-07-2004 08:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough, brains...
As for the site in question, it appears to have a decent interface...tourney players start with 1500 in chips it seems. However, blinds increase every 10 minutes...to me, that kind of negates much of the point of the tourney. I don't really like putting in $50 to play an all-in fest. Aplayer, if you can work something out with them to raise the blinds somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-30 minutes, that would be gravy. Otherwise, I'm patient enough to wait to have another site host a potential tourney.
-DirtyDirty-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 469 | From: Atlanta, GA, United States | Registered: Mar 2003 | IP: Logged |
DirtyDirty
Member
Member # 1487
Member Rated:
posted 03-08-2004 12:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm currently waiting on a reply from UltimateBet and 24hr Poker...hopefully, UB will host the tourney, since I think their tournament structure is equal to Pokerstars in terms of blind increases and starting chips...
I'll continue to look into the matter, and hopefully we can work something out so that we can have a private multitable tourney for members...I have no vested interest in UB, and don't play for real money at that site...however, if it works out, then we can all refer each other, so that everyone gets a sweet deal out of having to put money into UB.
-DirtyDirty-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 469 | From: Atlanta, GA, United States | Registered: Mar 2003 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-08-2004 01:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for the little confidence boost there much appreciated, i did say if anyone esle wants to set it up i'll play ive just emailed tournament network for a reply about wether i get a referal bonus or not and to prove if it's so i didnt know, however i do feel it's getting a little petty now and may well not bother and let the subject lie.
pokerstars did say they will at somepoint in the future beable to accomodate us but not at this point in time, maybe just worth waiting to see what they come up with, as its a site we all know and trust, i did look into the tournament network and ask as many questions as possible b4 mentioning them after they were advised to me on here, you even need to ring them for a security code as they wont email it, that sound secure to me, or maybe not suppose it depends on how you look at it!!
lets wait for pokerstars!
oh yeah and the threads that were deleted i though were genuine info that would help a lot of player with there bankrolls, i didn't at the time take the point that the forum is run by making money from the banner adds at the top sorry..... like i said won't happen again.
[ 03-07-2004, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: aplayer ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
NiHeraNeSsu
Member
Member # 1738
Member Rated:
posted 03-08-2004 02:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the bottom line, folks ? I believe the initiative is cancelled isn't it ? I personally do not care if aomeone gets a referral bonus for me unless this was the only goal of all of that,
which I guess not a case. So, aplayer, should I ignore the mail you sent to me regarding this tourney or you still have a bunch of players and it will take place ? Regards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 440 | From: Brooklyn,NY,US | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
aplayer
Member
Member # 2931
Rate Member posted 03-08-2004 03:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i suggest just cancelling it for now m8, better to wait for poker stars!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 267 | From: Cumbria UK | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
Dead Money
Junior Member
Member # 2785
Member Rated:
posted 03-08-2004 04:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just want to let you know that you might have a pretty long wait. Poker Stars just failed to set up a tournament for another forum I belong to. This forum had a history of private tourneys with them, and they still let them down.
I know there are concerns about playing at a relatively unknown site. aplayer, why not see if they can set up a play chip tournament for you. That would give everyone a chance to play there and check it out for themselves without having to make a deposit. If we like it, go from there. What does everyone think?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 11 | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |
DirtyDirty
Member
Member # 1487
Member Rated:
posted 03-08-2004 05:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how 'bout we wait and see what Ultimate Bet has to say about hosting the tourney?
-DirtyDirty-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 469 | From: Atlanta, GA, United States | Registered: Mar 2003 | IP: Logged |
Dead Money
Junior Member
Member # 2785
Member Rated:
posted 03-08-2004 05:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am up for a tourney at UB!
|
|
Drunk Poker
Free Internet Poker
Free Online Casino
Mac Poker Forum
Online Poker
Online Poker
Duplicate Poker.com
Empire Poker.com
euro poker promo code
euro poker deposit code
Euro Poker.net
Everest Poker.com
Everest Poker.net
Online Poker
Absalute Poker
Absolut Poker
Absulute Poker
Evrest Poker
Everast Poker
Full Tit Poker
Ful Tilt Poker
Online Poker
Online Poker
Europe Poker
Canada Poker
Online Poker
Online Poker
|