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There were three items that weren’t covered in Steve’s letter that are very important to me and some of my professional poker friends. Resolving these issues would make competing on the World Poker Tour more profitable, and therefore more enjoyable, for the players the WPT depends on.
Payout Structure - In the WPT championship, the winner received $4 million. Sixth place got $300,000. This difference is not the only reason, but is one of the main reasons that people are complaining about the blind structures. If this difference were significantly smaller, players might not be as bothered by a crapshoot. I’m sure other people will comment on how to improve the blind structure, but I would like the payout structure narrowed. Viewers will be impressed if the winner gets $2 million or $4 million. Both numbers are amazing to people that watch poker. This top-heavy prize structure is one of the reasons so many poker players are going broke. Finishing 6th among 600 of the best players in the world should get paid better than 12to1.
Deal Making - The WSOP allows deal making and their shows are great to watch too. The viewers don’t know, and even if they did, they might find the negotiation process interesting to watch. The inability for players to make deals when the variation in prize money from first to sixth is so vast is another reason why the blind structure is so important. The final table is not real poker and is being played for more money than most people have ever seen, and we can’t make deals. If we could make deals, I wouldn’t care so much about the blind structure. In addition, if a deal was made, it would speed up the tournament reducing your production costs and would spread the prize money over a greater number of players.
Logos - For those of us that are not sponsored by a poker site, we would like to be able to wear a logo if we make a final table. Why should it matter if we get it approved before the tournament starts? The time to negotiate a deal to wear someone’s logo, for most of us, is after the sponsor knows that we will be on T.V. It is in the best interest of the WPT to have its players make as much money as they can so they can continue to enter tournaments. This is free money to the player and the WPT makes it difficult for the second tier players to get it. In addition, why can’t we wear hats with logos? That PokerStars.net/Canada would create more money making opportunities for the players.
It seems as though when you make a final table in the WSOP, they do as much as they can to promote the player. I had just completed writing a poker book and came in third in the Reno WPT and there was no mention of the book on the show. Once again, this would have been no skin off the WPT’s back but could have provided more income to one of its players — some of which inevitably might end up back on their tables. It is mutually beneficial for the WPT to promote its players and their endeavors, but it doesn’t happen.
One of Steve’s concerns is that the WPT isn’t making money. It’s hard for players to comment on how that could be improved because we don’t have access to detailed financial statements. However, there are several line items that should be investigated and not just production costs.
The one thing that should be kept in mind is that poker players are the only competitors on T.V. that put up all of the money for their own prize pool PokerStars.net/Australia. These people should be kept happy and wealthy. Hey how about if I make a final table, you let me wear a hat and we’ll split the money?
I am convinced that Party is unplayable. I read 4 poker forums every day and continue to see the same: I win everywhere except Party, followed by the same Party shills making the standard replies. Z played at Party and seemed to be into poker and ended up losing in his last 3 months there. I personally am up tens of thousands of dollars online, yet at Party, I am a losing player if you subtract the bonuses. This is insane if you consider I have seen more bad play at Party than any other site, except Pacific.
I am not trying to steer you to any other site. I am simply stating an opinion based on the posts of real players and personal experience.
One other thing. I was playing Party earlier this month and twice at the same table the pot was pushed to my opponent when I had the winning hand. I contacted support and they sent a hand history but not until 30 minutes had passed. The community cards on the hand history were different than the ones I saw during the hand. The support said that perhaps my computer didn't refresh, but didn't compensate me for a significant loss.
By far the worst support online..not even close. Why did it take 30 minutes to get 2 hand historys? Why do I have to worry about the board refreshing. Why do the tables often show an incorrect waiting list? Why are there always several players sitting out during a game at several tables?
You decide for yourself, but for me-the Party is over. I won't even play there for the deposit bonuses.
[This message has been edited by evenmoney (edited 05-30-2003).]
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Posts: 1149 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
wassupdawg
Member
Member # 1135
Rate Member posted 05-30-2003 01:11 PM
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i have heard the same thing about party...more bad beats than anywhere else. i guy i know just bought in and took some pretty insane beats, i have never played there except for one freeroll.
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Posts: 101 | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged |
gambleholic
Member
Member # 1258
Member Rated:
posted 05-30-2003 01:22 PM
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I have a buddy who consistently wins there, but yeah the play is atrocious he only wins because he uses Cairo's wildman principles. So he gets paid off when he has nut high cards. The play seems to be worst than pacific if thats possible at .50/1
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Posts: 1093 | From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged |
Z
Member
Member # 2613
Member Rated:
posted 05-30-2003 01:55 PM
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Hiya Evenmoney.
Well I'm proud to inform you that I've finally found my good old pokerself again. As a matter of fact I've got 900$ out of the 1100 I've lost since march 1st back during this week - Including a mighty +480$ yesterday (on 2-4$ alone that was).
So I started off today with depositing for the 120$ at Stars. Bummer. For some reason I cannot win at Stars. I guess I'm just about even there overall, but I can't make a consistent winning there.
To compare Party and Stars I think Party is way more loose then Stars (and therefore you'll also have more bad beats). But most party tables are very passive where the tables at Stars are usually maniac.
So Party is still my choice of excellence. When you look at the avg. pot sizes at Party it should be obvious that these tables are good money indeed, if you play them right. When you can't win at Party I suppose that it's because your playing style doesn't fit this type of loose passive tables, just as my style suck at the aggressive tables at Stars.
But your final comment is right on. It sucks that their software refreshes so slowly. But what the heck - when the game is good, I'll take it
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Posts: 1449 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
evenmoney
Member
Member # 1091
Member Rated:
posted 05-30-2003 09:31 PM
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Hey Z,
I'm glad your back. Looking forward to your comments and posts.
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Posts: 1149 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
Z
Member
Member # 2613
Member Rated:
posted 06-01-2003 11:51 AM
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Thanks.
It's always nice to be missed
The bad news is that I wont be able to dedicate my full time & attention to poker anymore, as they wont leave me alone while unemployed anymore
But I'll still pop by every now and then when I have something to add, or just become courious to how the usual suspects are doing out there
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Posts: 1449 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
gambleholic
Member
Member # 1258
Member Rated:
posted 06-01-2003 12:49 PM
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What you need a ruse, George on Seinfeld, "its Art, Art Vandelay"......"No there is no Art Vandelay here".......
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Posts: 1093 | From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged |
Wavey
Member
Member # 1307
Rate Member posted 06-01-2003 08:01 PM
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Whilst I'm not a brilliant poker player, I do okay everywhere except Party and Stars... I've played at Pacific and held my own, but haven't played enough to be sure... but Party is by far the worst site for me... I've played the various levels from the lowest to 5/10... and all seem to favour the bad play... I've had nut hand after nut hand on the flop/turn turned over on the river by garbage like 6,2 off, 8,5/8,3 off (favourites it seems)... People going with unbelievable hands on quad-raises pre-flop and catching on the river every time... I tried to play mad, I tried to play wild, but I just lost big-time... something very wrong there it seems.
I've left it alone again now. But it's interesting to see the comments I made about this site a few months ago being echoed by players who at the time suggested it just didn't suit my play.
Wavey.
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Posts: 865 | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |
uwstud
Member
Member # 1645
Rate Member posted 06-02-2003 02:50 AM
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I've really only played at party, after the bonuses am only slightly up.
I tried ultimate bet and wasnt that impressed..
pokerstars looks good, heard it's a hard game..
Heard bigbet has a nice deposit bonus but not many games...
i pretty much play pot and no limit. When i compare party,stars, and ultimate, the avg pot size at party seems to be twice that of the others.
Also, whats with party not having a deposit bonus this month. they claim they are number poker site so they drop their bonus? well i'm a little less eager to give them my money now.
i scanned through the posts and no1 really made any site suggestions in the last 6 weeks....... WHATS THE BEST SITE???
-uwstud
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Posts: 105 | From: madison | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged |
evenmoney
Member
Member # 1091
Member Rated:
posted 06-02-2003 11:40 AM
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Try these:
Truepoker
PacificPoker
thepokerclub
intercasinopoker
planetpoker
Americascardroom
wsex
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Posts: 1149 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
Z
Member
Member # 2613
Member Rated:
posted 06-02-2003 12:53 PM
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Now regarding Party. It is indeed so that the avg. pot size normally is twice the size at Stars. That might be one good reason I don't do that very well at Stars.
But to argue that Party is unbeatable is absurd. When the avg. pot size is big, there should indeed be good money to make. But it requires a very different playing style then what would do at a tight table.
Also you should expect to be drawn out much more frequently, simply because you're up against a lot of different draws most of the time.
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Posts: 1449 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
evenmoney
Member
Member # 1091
Member Rated:
posted 06-02-2003 04:53 PM
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There is more to it than that. Even Mason Malmuth has commented that Party's support didn't do a very good job in response to a hand history that may have indicated collusion. You have to concerned that if you have the nuts on the river, the pot will be pushed to your opponent because the software sucks AND you will not be compensated. Sure the two outers fall like 9 outers, but the pot size is good so I guess I was wrong.
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Posts: 1149 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
kidbudy
Junior Member
Member # 1704
Rate Member posted 06-03-2003 09:04 AM
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I have been playing at Party for the last 3-4 months and while I am down overall, I have done farely well the last 4 or 5 weeks. That's not to say I haven't taken my share of bad beats, and I can't stand that their servers seem to go down with increasing frequency (is this a problem at any of the other sites???), but I still like Party. I am finding it might be more suited to tight-aggressive play. I don't get into chasing matches with maniacs but you have to make people pay for their stupidity. Also, I won't play below 3-6 there. I think at 3-6 and above, the play tends to be better and more predictable.
Kidbudy
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Posts: 2 | From: New York, NY 10128 | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
StuUnger
Member
Member # 1363
Rate Member posted 06-04-2003 11:33 PM
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Its poker!!!!! Let me ask you how many tables you play at once. Anyone ever played at a brick and mortor joint and leave thinking how unlucky they were? Well an Internet game is about 3 times faster that a live game. So multiply that sick feeling by 3 or if you play 2 tables multiply it by 6 or if you play 3 tables multiply that bad feeling by 9 which is what I'm feeling right now unless I really am a losing player which after years now I really dont think I am. So evenmoney, your probably just feeling 6 or 9 times as bad as you would if you were in a bad streak for 6 or 9 weeks of live play instead of one week online. As for getting cheated I'm sure there was something to it who knows but I've been making a profit from party for a while now. Maybe they just picked me to be one of the lucky winners though, who knows. anyways.........
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Posts: 112 | From: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |
Z
Member
Member # 2613
Member Rated:
posted 06-08-2003 07:23 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by evenmoney:
There is more to it than that. Even Mason Malmuth has commented that Party's support didn't do a very good job in response to a hand history that may have indicated collusion. You have to concerned that if you have the nuts on the river, the pot will be pushed to your opponent because the software sucks AND you will not be compensated. Sure the two outers fall like 9 outers, but the pot size is good so I guess I was wrong.
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Now this is a completely different matter. I'll happily agree that their software is no match for pokerstars. Regarding the collusion/support I don't know the specific incident, but I think that it would be nice with written procedures for how this is handled for ALL sites. Personally I have had no problems with their support - and have actually been compensated whenever I had a complaint (but then again - I generate 500$ worth of rake for them every month, and it's only been peanuts).
But this still doesn't explain why you do so poorly there. With the avg. pot being twice the size of a comparable Stars table, there should indeed be good fishing waters for a player like you. There is for me - and whenever i try my luck at Stars I find it way too tight and aggressive for my liking.
In all - I don't really see why you're so harsh on them. It sure ain't the worst site out there, and in my opinion the softness of ther games by far compensates for the periodical software troubles (I still fail to see how you can be THAT slobby in the testing department - some of their bugs have been really gross).
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Posts: 1449 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Cardster
Member
Member # 1543
Rate Member posted 06-09-2003 07:36 AM
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www.casino-rebates.com has all the top online pokerrooms with the best bonuses for first time users
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Posts: 105 | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP: Logged |
Wavey
Member
Member # 1307
Rate Member posted 06-09-2003 08:29 AM
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Was recently on a table at Party... everything hung, costing me a little money so I complained. The hangs didn't occur just for me but for everyone at the table. I spoke to three different people on the live help and all of them said "Please Hold..." and then never came back to me. So I e-mailed. Their response was that there had been no problem. Thank god it was only a few bucks... would've been peeved if it had been substantially more. It was irritating though, that the live help did nothing.
David.
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Posts: 865 | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |
MiamiIce
Junior Member
Member # 1721
Rate Member posted 06-09-2003 11:23 AM
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You mentioned 4 other Poker forums. I'd be interested in them too.
TIA!
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Posts: 1 | From: Salisbury, MD, United States | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
srolle
Member
Member # 1677
Rate Member posted 06-09-2003 02:48 PM
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I just started playing partypoker.
Did anyone see my tounrament post?
They sponsored my tournament, i got 2nd. woohoo. Got some money online.
I've spoken with a couple of the people that work there. Both with a complaint once, but also when trying to make a deal for the tournament.
Everyone I've spoken to has been professional, friendly, and timely.
(Unlike pokerroom, which denied that i got 2nd in there freeroll after no money was transferred to my account. I had to copy and paste the results from there website before they believed me)
As a poor college student, i'm finding there low-limit tournaments and tables pretty soft. Even compared to my college buddies, w
ho are supposedly worse than "real players."
I don't know about middle-limit (i'm trying to build my bankroll to go for the promised land... i could win enough to pay for frat dues in 5 hands.)
--scott
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Posts: 611 | From: Chicago | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged |
Mr. Nuts
Member
Member # 1239
Rate Member posted 06-09-2003 08:04 PM
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and just think, you can always sell your books if you lose! Ha ! Just kidding, go for it!
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Posts: 741 | From: Marshall,Tx. Harrison | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged |
evenmoney
Member
Member # 1091
Member Rated:
posted 06-09-2003 10:41 PM
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You mentioned 4 other Poker forums
I like this one the best since it's small and friendly. Here are some others:
2+2.com - This is the Mason Malmuth site. It's huge, slow and has some rude posters, but it has enough experts to make it worth reading.
Rec.gambling.poker- Has some of the worst foul-mouthed posters online, but they tell it like it is and pull no punches. Gary Carson posts there quite a bit.
Pokerpages.com- Has some interesting articles, and a small, but occasionally interesting forum. They had a guy named Bryan the pro, who went pro and went bust. It kept me reading it.
Unitedpokerforum.com-This is Caro's forum and he sometimes chimes in. Kind of dry reading overall.
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Posts: 1149 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
StuUnger
Member
Member # 1363
Rate Member posted 06-10-2003 04:37 PM
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Hey Srolle, Wanna pay those frat dues by playing online? Some super advice would be get turbo texas hold'em made by wilson software. The software basically can beat low-limit online games by its self.
Responding to someones post, I also can see a difference like day and night between the looseness of Stars and Party, the latter being the loosest by far
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Posts: 112 | From: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |
StuUnger
Member
Member # 1363
Rate Member posted 06-10-2003 04:38 PM
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Hey Srolle, Wanna pay those frat dues by playing online? Some super advice would be get turbo texas hold'em made by wilson software. The software basically can beat low-limit online games by its self.
Responding to someones post, I also can see a difference like day and night between the looseness of Stars and Party, the latter being the loosest by far
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Posts: 112 | From: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |
Wavey
Member
Member # 1307
Rate Member posted 06-11-2003 06:59 PM
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The live floorperson's at Party are a joke.
Every time I have an issue now, it's "Please hold...."
And then nothing happens.
Im sure they say that, then move on to the next customer and then say "Please hold..."
I even told the guy last night I didn't expect to hear anything back.
And I didn't, so it proves my point. What's the point in live help if it's a Wal-Mart employee serving you???
W
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Posts: 865 | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |
gambleholic
Member
Member # 1258
Member Rated:
posted 06-11-2003 11:06 PM
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Tolstoy wrote War and Peace faster than you could get served by those morons. Their staff is useless.
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Posts: 1093 | From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged |
Wavey
Member
Member # 1307
Rate Member posted 06-12-2003 08:09 PM
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Well, an evening passes by, and 500 lost to absolute morons on Party. At 5/10 no less.
These guys go with any A or K no matter what kicker and will see it through to the river to catch. I had 33 (admittedly not the best hand) caught trips on the flop, yet people with AQ bet their top pair like they had trips (did this pre-flop also).
Guess what, caught lucky, destroyed my hand with a str8 on the river.
These guys on 5/10 were mental. Going to the river on a A and catching a 3 outer to win.
I have AA, and bet it as such. A guy with 8,4 comes to the river to catch a one-carded str8. And he wonders why I call him a chaser! Happened twice. Second guy got real upset cause I asked why the morons always won with nothing hands against KK or AA.
I know it's luck, but jesus. I even told the guy that I thought I left the one-card chasers at 1/2. Odd thing was, I said "maybe I should chase?" so I did and I won the very next hand! LOL.
People bet AK with a pair on the flop/board like they had the other two cards! Mental. And you wouldn't believe the abuse I got for it when I said it was moronic play.
Ah well.. that's poker.. at Party anyways...
LOL
W.
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Posts: 865 | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |
Wavey
Member
Member # 1307
Rate Member posted 06-12-2003 08:17 PM
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I am not kidding...
I watched a guy play with nothing hands, and catch every time on the river, go from 400 to 900 in the same time I went from 700 to 200.
There is something wrong, considering how tight I play.
Even when I try and play EXACTLY the way this guy does, I never catch. NEVER.
I know it sounds like paranoia, but to play as tight as I do and not win is against every rule and book and lesson I ever learnt about poker.
W
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Posts: 865 | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |
gambleholic
Member
Member # 1258
Member Rated:
posted 06-12-2003 08:56 PM
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There is nothing wrong with playing ace king like a pocket pair on a brick board with solid players it is the same as pair if you ask me, now for the play of these whackos these guys could be new players from the ads on tv who play 5/10 live(if that's the lowest limit the casino has the players are generally cruddy) or real rookies, who don't realize how quickly the chips will go on a 5/10 table. Also make a note on these morons and PokerStars.net/Nederlands follow them around there is no way that he will keep those chips.
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Po
sts: 1093 | From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged |
Wavey
Member
Member # 1307
Rate Member posted 06-12-2003 09:48 PM
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Okay.. so, the flop comes, A6A... I bet it cause I have a 6... someone raises me...
We go to the river, bet, call, bet call... then next two cards are 9, J.
This guy has 10 J suited diamonds (which there are NONE of on the board.
So, how can he raise me and still feel confident of winning? Let's face it, he has NO HAND compared to mine. (I had A,6 off btw).
I'm not being paranoid. But there is something very very wrong at Party for this sort of hand to bet and then win on the river.
It just seems crazy to me that these people bet AK, AQ and anything else you'd raise with pre-flop after the flop when they fail to get support for it.
If I say this at the table, they say I'm whining. Maybe I am. But then the people that say it are usually the ones winning with miracles.
W.
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Posts: 865 | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |
gambleholic
Member
Member # 1258
Member Rated:
posted 06-12-2003 10:20 PM
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My worst recorded day in online history was a day where I lost to crap like a moron calling my pocket kong raise one on one with 7/2 off catching the two and chasing the 7, I knew I what the moron had before the river showdown, but these morons are unreal? I think bad players play worse online because they lose a sense of reality, when it comes to money and chips. But like I said playing ace king ace queen or ace jack in late postion strong is winning play if you can narrow down the field on the turn........ Ps I lost 100 dollars that day at pokerroom 1/2 thats the same as your five hundred dollar loss. Pacific poker I have had 2 melt down days to bozo callers. I have actually stopped playing the midnight games because most of the bad players play like crackheads and you can't power bet Ace high, unless you catch on the flop. I just hope that your float is large enough to sustain these beats?
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Posts: 1093 | From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged |
drunk bob
Junior Member
Member # 1740
Rate Member posted 06-12-2003 10:43 PM
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dont understand your post if you had aaa66 what are you compllain about
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Posts: 9 | From: covington va usa | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
drunk bob
Junior Member
Member # 1740
Rate Member posted 06-12-2003 10:49 PM
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or i nneed to know what bwtmeans?
[This message has been edited by drunk bob (edited 06-12-2003).]
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Posts: 9 | From: covington va usa | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
Wavey
Member
Member # 1307
Rate Member posted 06-13-2003 05:13 AM
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Bob, I had just a single six... not the house. Only two pair.
D.
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Posts: 865 | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |
Z
Member
Member # 2613
Member Rated:
posted 06-13-2003 11:58 AM
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Well Wavey. Things like that happen all the time at party. This being said the different limits play very different in one respect. They're all quite loose games, but the higher the limit the higher the level of aggression.
In my case that prevents me from booking a win at 5-10$ and above. I simply don't play aggressive enough, and get pushed out of way too many hands where I was actually ahead (like some of the ones you lost there).
So my advice is that you find out which limit suits you best, and then start playing two tables at that limit, instead of moving up where you might not belong.
I don't remember my worst run, but I do remember my best. I've once managed to win 750$ in a day at the 2-4$ tables. When you play in those loose games, they tend to pay you off generrously when the cards come your way
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Posts: 1449 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Wavey
Member
Member # 1307
Rate Member posted 06-13-2003 08:10 PM
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Hi Z,
I get what you're saying.
Crazy thing is, I won all what I lost, and more, back today. I think it was down to attitude. Not evaluating the table and its players enough.
Today, I played my normal game, and won $300 this morning, and $300 tonight.
And it was more than easy. And at 3/6.
I think 3/6 is my level. I lost at 5/10. Mainly cause of the bluffers and their catches. But, being a bit on tilt due to the losses I'd incurred, I blamed their play instead of my own.
So, 3/6 is where I'll stay. And I'll watch a while first.
:-)))
Happy again.
W
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Posts: 865 | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |
srolle
Member
Member # 1677
Rate Member posted 06-14-2003 02:20 AM
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Hey guys,
I know what you all mean. I just got knocked out of my puny $5 no-limit tournament at party. I have KK in late position, 7 people left, blinds are 25/50. Guy 2 to my right makes it 150, next guy makes it 250... I go all-in with 650... The big blind calls cold, the other guys all fold...
I'm dreaming of getting a big stack to play from, and.....
The big blind catches A55 to make a full house with his A5o.....I know this is little stakes to you guys. ... but im pissed. Oh well, i can't wait to play some more with the midnight crowd...you guys should think like that too. Just do some more value betting, and assume your opponents are morons until they prove otherwise. I'm not that great at online poker yet, but i've come in the money in most (10/16) of the single tables i've played at. I still can't seem to do well in the .5/1 ring games. i think you should calm down, come back and take their money.
Scott
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Posts: 611 | From: Chicago | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged |
srolle
Member
Member # 1677
Rate Member posted 06-14-2003 10:12 AM
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oh yeah, and i know my stakes are puny compared, but bad play is bad play, regardless of the stakes...
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Posts: 611 | From: Chicago | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged |
Krumc
Junior Member
Member # 1607
Rate Member posted 06-14-2003 04:27 PM
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I agree. I just started playing Party for the $25 bonus and I got hammered. Ive never seen play like that. One bad beat after the next and one bad call in a NL game my $50 starting was gone in record time.
Its slightly better in the $5 tourneys Ive found at least for me. There you can do more with the betting to knock out the chasers etc.
Its back to UltimateBet for me as soon as the moneys gone or I can build it back up to cash out.
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Posts: 13 | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged |
Cardster
Member
Member # 1543
Rate Member posted 06-15-2003 09:25 AM
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I feel ya. I hardly play at party poker because of the bad beats. My favorite for the fair games and more true random is the poker club. UB is okay but too many str8 flushes are made their. Visit http://www.casino-rebates.com/Pokerroom.html a well put together section on most popular online Poker Rooms. And Special Bonus that no other online sites are offering
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Posts: 105 | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP: Logged |
uwstud
Member
Member # 1645
Rate Member posted 06-16-2003 01:48 AM
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just a little note on single table tourneys:
I actually think that the 10+1 tourneys are EASIER to win or atleast place in the money than the 5+1 tourneys are. Also, in my opinion you are getting ripped off $.50 in the 5+1 (should be 5+.5)
with the low blind structure in the first 30 or so hands you can afford to pass on all but the best starting hands
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Before I venture onto the world of online playing, can anyone tell me if there is a significant difference between the sites' software? In other words, I want to know if one site's program is less prone to slowdowns or crashes, or other problems I may not know about. Thanks.
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Posts: 81 | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged |
NiHeraNeSsu
Member
Member # 1738
Member Rated:
posted 08-13-2003 01:29 PM
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ParadisePoker and PlanetPoker are pretty stable. Paradise has probably the best user interface and support. However it may be the most tough site regarding the players skills level. PartyPoker is the site with much lower I would say lowest players average skill level but at the same time it sufffers from multiple server stucks, freezes and crashes and support there is disgusting. I did not play anywhere else and even though the PartyPoker is sometimes stinks I would still recommend you to start there.
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Posts: 440 | From: Brooklyn,NY,US | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
Darrow
Member
Member # 1849
Rate Member posted 08-13-2003 02:01 PM
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Thanks. How about Pacific Poker?
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Posts: 81 | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged |
SinTax
Member
Member # 1716
Rate Member posted 08-13-2003 05:07 PM
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Pacific is terrible as far as stability is concerned. And I mean many, many disconnects every day. Sometimes a few every hour.
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Posts: 80 | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
SamSlade
Member
Member # 1735
Member Rated:
posted 08-14-2003 04:15 AM
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Due to misguided loyalty I've become institutionalised and only play at Pacific, were I started in May this year! I play most evenings (UK time) for a couple of hours. During this time I've experienced approx. 3 server crashes and once very two nights I'll get disconnected for no apparent reason, perhaps the later is an ISP related issue? I don't think it compromises your experience too much, just a little annoying when it happens. Most often if you log-in again you'll get seated right back at the table you were disconnected from.
I have also downloaded Ultimate Bet and Party Poker and watched some of the action, but not yet deposited at these sites. I'm a tight fellow and want to grow my original $100 at Pacific into $1,000,000
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Posts: 122 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |
Z
Member
Member # 2613
Member Rated:
posted 08-14-2003 04:36 AM
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quote:
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I'm a tight fellow and want to grow my original $100 at Pacific into $1,000,000 [/B]
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LOL. Well good luck hehe
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Posts: 1446 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Radar
unregistered
posted 08-14-2003 12:11 PM
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Look for the deck shuffle as your indicator.
Some of the sites mentioned have a deck that with put a three flush and pair on the board over 85% of the time. You don't want that, to many folks stay and out draw you. Look for a balanced deck where the cards come random and not all are high face cards predominantly. Think about it, 10-Ace as faces and 9-2 as not, and if you are seeing equal numbers, the deck is squewd. Should see about more faces 30-40% of time, rest low cards if really a good deck shuffle not a program to entice betting and suck rake.
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Darrow
Member
Member # 1849
Rate Member posted 08-14-2003 12:23 PM
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Radar,
Now I'm really concerned. Are you saying that some sites don't have random shuffles? If so, how can I figure this out without downloading a whole bunch of software, or spending a lot of time. Isn't there any site out there which everyone basically agrees has reliable software (and is pretty good on all other scores as well)?
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Posts: 81 | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged |
srolle
Member
Member # 1677
Rate Member posted 08-14-2003 02:43 PM
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are you really saying that some sites actually use a non-random shuffling algorhythm? aren't the sites certified by some authority or something? This would be a huge scandal if it were true, and seems like a losing business strategy too.
Do you have credible info or is this your own judgement?
scott
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Posts: 611 | From: Chicago | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged |
mj
Junior Member
Member # 2025
Rate Member posted 08-18-2003 01:10 AM
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Arg, the shuffles are random already. I've written an article involving this if anyone is interested: http://teamfu.freeshell.org/online_poker_cheating.html
In short, non-random shuffles WILL eventually be detected through poker tracking software. It's bad business sense period. Why risk everything to make a tiny bit more money?
I've played on 4 different sites and each has it's pluses and bonuses. I'll tell you straight off I'm biased toward Party Poker, even though I think their service stinks. The players are soft and there's an endless supply of players. You simply cannot find that anywhere else. Yeah, Pokerstars will treat you great or Planet looks like a pro-design, but the bottomline is why you should be playing poker- and for that, it's hard to dispute that Party is at the top of that list.
Anyhow, just my personal opinions, but I make money and I play at Party, so that's where I'm coming from.
- MJ
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Party Poker Playing Guide http://teamfu.freeshell.org/
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Posts: 4 | From: wa | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged |
Radar
unregistered
posted 08-18-2003 08:30 AM
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Has been discussed and reported in posts on 2 + 2, REC gambling and other discussion websites. Contact a site directly yourself and ask, or just watch 20-30 hands in a row and write it down.
Rakes tend to increase when pairs and flushes made more hands and the % of cards hitting the board a certain way can be manipulated by the shuffle and deal, it's a computer that is programmed. (Not to favor a particular person, just to deal more good hands than a random shuffle and deal).
I do not want to name any site here that has an abnormal amount of pairs hitting the board, you be the judge of that.
I will contact someone who ran the numbers and have them post here if they are willing. Until then, just take note where you are playing. I happen to play at a very fair site myself and do not want to post the name here in fear someone might think I am being biased or recruiting. That is not the point, just find your own shuffle that gives you a chance to play poker, not who can run you down with any two cards cause the board will pair or 3 or 4 flush a high % of the time.
Found a post, again, the author did not report sites that were so he would not get in trouble and the one listed came out as being fair so you would know how to look for it. You be your own judge, don't take his word or mine. Anyone that wants to see my results on line in low limit holdem for a six month period of time can email me privately (nyyankezz@hotmail.com). This is not about bashing any site, just making you aware of what to look for, it's your money.
Edited by Radar
I found one post this am at victorypoker.com from Edwardr:
">>>>> dynamitepoker.com <<<<< -------- Is the shuffle random? --------
It is a well-known fact that most average to better poker players will only see the flop when holding high cards in their hand. High cards are considered ACE, KING, QUEEN, or JACK, or a combination of two of these. A lot of players will play even one of these cards if suited with a lower card. The fact is, that these are the preferred cards.
Online poker sites are well aware of this fact and could even program their shuffle as to allow these cards to hit the board more often than the statistical average, to make hands last longer as to increase the rake. Let me explain in further detail what I’m referring to. If two or more players see the flop holding one or more of these high cards and high cards hit the board, it will increase betting and calling as more players hit their hole cards. More betting means a bigger pot, which means a bigger rake. I must say that I know of no poker site that does this, but it is entirely possible.
There was a short study done recently at dynamitepoker.com in order to test this very theory. I say it was a short study because it only included 160 hands in consecutive order, which would be way too few to consider in order to prove guilt, but large enough to prove innocents.
The following is the results of that study that shows details of each hand. First column being the cards that hit the board on the flop. The second column is the card that came on the turn, and the third column is the river. Cards were only identified if they were ACE, KING, QUEEN, or JACK. If none of these cards hit at that particular time, a short dash (-) was used to indicate this. If the hand was ended early, it so states.
Following the graph, I will explain the results.
Flop Turn River
QQ - K
- - -
A - -
- - -
Q - -
Q - N0RIVER
KA - -
K - -
NOFLOP
- - Q
- - -
- - -
- - -
JA Q -
K NOTURN
K - -
- - -
Q - -
QA - -
- -
- - -
- - K
JKA - -
- - -
- J -
Q - -
J - NORIVER
- - -
NOFLOP
AK K -
Q J Q
J - -
JQK A -
- - -
K A A
K - NORIVER
J - J
J - -
QJ - -
- - NORIVER
- - -
NOFLOP
NOFLOP
J NOTURN
J K -
A - Q
- - -
K NOTURN
- K NORIVER
K J NORIVER
- Q -
JQ - -
- Q -
JJ - -
NOFLOP
- - K
- - -
- Q NORIVER
- - Q
- K -
K - -
Q - -
K - -
A NOTURN
QJ - NORIVER
- - NORIVER
QA J -
Q NOTURN
- - -
AJ - -
KQ Q -
KK A -
Q - -
AQ - -
J - -
AJ - -
QQ Q -
- NOTURN
A Q J
AJ - K
NOFLOP
NOFLOP
QK Q -
NOFLOP
AK - NORIVER
NOFLOP
A NOTURN
NOFLOP
JK - -
Q K -
- NOTURN
A - Q
K NOTURN
- - J
JK - NORIVER
K NOTURN
QAA NOTURN
A NOTURN
Q - NORIVER
- - -
J A NORIVER
J - Q
- K -
- - K
AQ NOTURN
Q - Q
J - Q
J - -
JK - -
- - NORIVER
A - -
J - -
Q - -
A A K
A - -
K J -
K J -
- NOTURN
A NOTURN
- - -
- - -
- K -
K - A
- - -
QKA A
AK - NORIVER
A - -
JK - -
- NOTURN
Q A -
- - K
K - NORIVER
J - K
- A NORIVER
K - -
- J Q
AK - K
NOFLOP
J - -
A - -
JQ - -
QK - -
A Q NORI
VER
J NOTURN
- K Q
Q J -
A - -
- A -
- J -
KKJ - NORIVER
- K Q
K A -
K A -
- - A
JK - -
JQ - -
J J -
- - A
Since ACE, KING, QUEEN, and JACK make up 30.76% of a deck of cards, you would expect to see these cards on the board 30.76% of the time. This means that out of the five community cards that are shown in the middle of the table, on the average, 1.5 of those five community cards should be an ACE, KING, QUEEN, or JACK. Simply speaking, if one hand has one of these cards, the next should have two. Three for every ten cards that are shown on the board. If shuffles are random, than there is no way of guaranteeing that this will happen every two hands, but on an average it should come out this way. Maybe 30 out of 100 cards would prove easier to see if the average comes out right.
In the case above, the entire 160 hands were used with the exception of the 11 hands that had no flop. Using the remaining 149 hands, all cards were counted. 113 hands went to the river meaning 113 X 5 cards on the board would be 565 cards. Another 19 hands went as far as the turn which means 19 X 4 cards on the board is another 76 cards. Only 17 hands ended after the flop, which means 17 X 3 cards on the board which is another 51 cards to work with. In all there were 692 cards to work with in this test and if the average of 30.76% should be ACE, KING, QUEEN, or JACK than those cards should represent 212 out of the 692 cards. This study shows that 201 of the 692 cards worked with in this study were ACE, KING, QUEEN, or JACK.
This shows that even in a short study, dynamitepoker.com’s software is 95% correct and in the long run, lets say 2000 hands, would most certainly come out 100%. Sure, there are hands that have three or four of these cards, and hands that have none, but in the long run it still averages out to the correct figure. The fluctuation would go up to and below the 100% mark at different intervals. At 160 hands the score was at 95%, at 320 hands the score might go up to 100%, and then return back to somewhere in the 90 percentages area later. At any given point you might find it at just less than 100%, but it will always stay somewhere in that area. If given enough time to reach infinitum, the figure would be 99.99% - 100%.
Proven by this study, it is my opinion that dynamitepoker.com is totally fair to all players and is definitely using a random shuffle.
The only question left in my mind about dynamitepoker.com is this. Given that 113 out of 160 hands (70%), went all the way to the river, how loose are the players at dynamitepoker.com?"
[This message has been edited by Radar (edited 08-18-2003).]
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IP: Logged |
holla1time
Member
Member # 1914
Rate Member posted 08-18-2003 10:45 AM
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Radar, i think you owe it to us to point us in the direction of any studies that show a site to be unfair. no one will accuse you of anything wrong.
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Posts: 36 | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged |
Radar
unregistered
posted 08-18-2003 12:57 PM
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I put up one to show you how it was done. I still feel uncomfortable stating who I have seen #'s on and who I checked personally and don't play there any longer.
It's not fair to that site to have me slam them here, and I won't. All I can say is look at the board yourself and make a mental or written note. You will see it without me telling who.
I appreciate your understanding.
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Darrow
Member
Member # 1849
Rate Member posted 08-18-2003 02:10 PM
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Darrow,
If you don't want to identify any site that has a problem, please let me know what sites you believe are ok. I, for one, will not accuse you of proselytizing. Or perhaps you (or anyone else) can just tell me whether I Paradise is relatively good. It seems that their software is sophisticate and service better than average, though some people like the games better elsehwere. I just want to pick one site I can stick with.
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Posts: 81 | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged |
SinTax
Member
Member # 1716
Rate Member posted 08-18-2003 06:13 PM
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I did my own unscientific randomness study, about the same sample size as the example above, at Paradise. Don't just take my word for it, but I will not play there again.
It's also my opinion that those players that have trained themselves to be able to win there will have a hard time winning at other sites where the flop cards are more random, and thus, weaker.
Just my .02, take it or leave it.
...Cause someone's sure been playing tricks on me for the past two weeks. It's not just the usual bad beats. More like hour long periods where my actions have no effect on the outcome. Cards just keep falling in the cruelest of ways - and there's just no way of playing your way out of it. That card he needs for his draw always turns up at the river.
...And as I don't believe in collusion it must be some sort of black magic!!!
Here's how it looks when they're practising voodoo on you. ALL DAY that is!!! And please notice that these dudes play like they are on acid, and nevertheless catch up (well actually I kinda knew I was beat on the turn, but after a 3 hours without winning a pot I didn't really care - he had to show me a hand to walk away with it - whivch he off course did).
Just needed to shout it out somewhere.
***** Hand History for Game 154041928 *****
2/4 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Thu Aug 28 17:46:35 EDT 2003
Table Card Room Table 1407 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: kaptmike3 ( $35)
Seat 2: riostyle ( $361)
Seat 3: Z( $541)
Seat 4: FourSixes ( $44)
Seat 5: Pepe_1 ( $55)
Seat 6: coprun ( $91)
Seat 7: Patr1ck ( $91)
Seat 8: BigYouth ( $96)
Seat 9: Yanqui ( $257)
Seat 10: EzWider420 ( $27)
kaptmike3 posts small blind (1)
riostyle posts big blind (2)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to zorglub [ Kd, Kh ]
Z raises (4) to 4
FourSixes folds.
Pepe_1 folds.
coprun calls (4)
Patr1ck calls (4)
BigYouth folds.
Yanqui folds.
EzWider420 calls (4)
kaptmike3 calls (3)
riostyle calls (2)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4h, 3c, Jc ]
EzWider420: UNREAL
kaptmike3 checks.
riostyle checks.
Z bets (2)
coprun calls (2)
Patr1ck calls (2)
EzWider420 raises (4) to 4
kaptmike3 folds.
riostyle calls (4)
Z raises (4) to 6
coprun folds.
Patr1ck folds.
EzWider420 calls (2)
riostyle calls (2)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Qc ]
riostyle checks.
Z checks.
EzWider420 bets (4)
riostyle calls (4)
Z calls (4)
** Dealing River ** : [ Td ]
riostyle checks.
zorglub checks.
EzWider420 bets (4)
riostyle folds.
Z calls (4)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $63 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 4h 3c Jc Qc Td ]
kaptmike3 balance $31, lost $4 (folded)
riostyle balance $347, lost $14 (folded)
Z balance $523, lost $18 [ Kd Kh ] [ a pair of kings -- Kd,Kh,Qc,Jc,Td ]
FourSixes balance $44, didn't bet (folded)
Pepe_1 balance $55, didn't bet (folded)
coprun balance $85, lost $6 (folded)
Patr1ck balance $85, lost $6 (folded)
BigYouth balance $96, didn't bet (folded)
Yanqui balance $257, didn't bet (folded)
EzWider420 balance $72, bet $18, collected $63, net +$45 [ 9c 7c ] [ a flush, queen high -- Qc,Jc,9c,7c,3c ]
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Posts: 1447 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Devedander
Member
Member # 1882
Rate Member posted 08-28-2003 05:37 PM
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That guy got lucky plain and simple. In all fairness it was a suited connector and some people like to play those. I tend to play tighter and woulda mucked that especially to heavy betting.
I think you were right to call all the way to see his flush. I have had multi day streaks where people outdraw me with rags, it just happens
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Posts: 65 | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged |
evenmoney
Member
Member # 1091
Member Rated:
posted 08-28-2003 10:53 PM
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I like betting the turn and folding if raised because you don't want to give a free card to someone holding a big club, but it's close since you have someone just calling the raises on the flop. I had an almost identical flop and bet into 2 opponents when the 3 flush came on the turn and got called by a jack and a gutshot draw(it still blows my mind to see someone drawing to a gut with a 3 flush on board). I ended up winning with queens.
You already know about variance.
This aggression will not stand, man.
- The Dude, The Big Lebowski.
.
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Posts: 1149 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
Z
Member
Member # 2613
Member Rated:
posted 08-29-2003 09:20 AM
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Agreed Evenmoney. And that would also have been my cause of action if I hadn't been on semitilt. There's no way a weak passive player can present that betting sequence without having me beat one way or another after that turn card.
Nevertheless. This voodoo bad omen curse bigtime reverse rush that has hit me sure continues. Down 100BB since last night.
Here's what happened during a session today.
I hold 56 in the BB. Flop comes 347, and I end up losing to 43o (played from MP) for a full house.
I hold AA and 3 bet it pre-flop with 5 or 6 callers. I end up losing to the SB cold calling the 3-bet with 103s. Calling the flop to which his only connection was1 card in his suit - and ending up backdooring his flush.
I hold AJo and the flop comes JJ4. Gues what one of my opponents in MP has. If your guess was J4o You're right on!!!
I hold AKo in MP and raise. Two players behind me and the blinds call. Flop came AK3 with two diamonds. Get 3 callers and quite some betting and raising. Turns out that one of the players behind me had smooth called with the two remaining kings in the hole.
When you keep gtaking beats like that, there's not much you can do, except to try and remain calm. As to the fluctuation side this sure is the opposite of a rush. The problem with this reverse rush is that after a while I start to get the feeling that my actions are in no way related to the outcome of the game. I'll lose no matter what I do (which is correct). And when this feeling starts to show up, I know I'm ½ inch from starting to tilt really bad. And this is exactly why I don't regard people for being much of a pokerplayer before they've survived a long such period. Coping with that mentally can be really hard.
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Posts: 1447 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
joe
Member
Member # 1210
Rate Member posted 08-29-2003 10:41 AM
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jesus Z, sounds like your having a really bad day, I think days like them really seperate the men from the boys and if you can get through a run like that without going on tilt and loosing as little as possible then you really deserve to congratulate your self cos maintaining a calm and focused outlook is in many ways harder than actually playing the cards right, good luck to ya and I hope you get some luck soon
Joe.
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Posts: 538 | From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Oct 2002 | IP: Logged |
evenmoney
Member
Member # 1091
Member Rated:
posted 08-29-2003 01:12 PM
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You might want to try playing one table for a while. It will allow you to keep a closer eye on your opponents, which will allow you to make some good folds, raises and steals.
If you are at the point where you say to yourself: I never thought it was even possible to run this bad, then that's about as bad as it gets. That's why the experts tell us 300 big bets. There really is that much luck in limit for us mere mortals.
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Posts: 1149 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |
Z
Member
Member # 2613
Member Rated:
posted 08-29-2003 02:56 PM
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Well last time I ran this bad it lasted for a couple of weeks, and then I went on semi-tilt for three full months. This is the second week of my reverse rush, and I've only been tilting for short periods so far, and have managed to break even.
Checked my pokertracker stats for last week and it turned out that I'd averaged 1.5 BB per time I was dealt AA and had lost 1.5 BB per time I was dealt QQ for the whole week. At least I find some confort in those figures, cause it tells me that it really is the cards playing tricks on me.
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Posts: 1447 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
jll1024
Member
Member # 1243
Rate Member posted 08-30-2003 09:11 PM
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I just wanted to say I understand what you're going through and good luck on your endeavors. At one time I went through seven straight sessions without winning a single hand. This streak ended, thankfully, when I was just about to give up. Stick through it and everything should be all right.
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Posts: 85 | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged |
cantona7
Member
Member # 1912
Rate Member posted 08-31-2003 08:27 AM
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Odd side note ...
... During a long session at Party the other night, I saw 18 suited pocket hands high enough to play.
On the first 17, not one card matching the suit I was carrying appeared on the flop. I'd like to see the mathematical probability on that!
ECM
(on the 18th, I saw one, but no flush was coming)
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Posts: 83 | Registered: Jul 2003 | IP: Logged |
GarySJFL
Moderator
Member # 1342
Member Rated:
posted 09-02-2003 03:20 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by cantona7:
Odd side note ...
... During a long session at Party the other night, I saw 18 suited pocket hands high enough to play.
On the first 17, not one card matching the suit I was carrying appeared on the flop. I'd like to see the mathematical probability on that!
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I'll take a crack.
There are 13 cards of each suit. If you have two of them, that leaves 11 suited cards out of 50 unknown cards.
Thus, the probability of the first card of the flop NOT being of your suit is 39/50.
The probability of the second card of the flop NOT being of your suit is 38/49, since there are now only 49 unnkown cards, and still 11 that you can hit.
Similarly, the probability of the third card of the flop not being of your suit is 37/48.
We can multiply these three numbers together to determine the probability of all three events happening:
(39/50) x (38/49) x (37/48)
.78 x .7755 x .7708
0.466
So if you hold two suited cards, there is a 46.6 percent chance that no card of your suit will flop.
The next question is, what are the odds of this happening 17 times in a row? .466 raised to the power of 17 is 2.304e-6, or .000002304. That is 434,949 to 1.
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Posts: 1887 | From: south Florida | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |
Wavey
Member
Member # 1307
Rate Member posted 09-04-2003 02:21 PM
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Just my two-penneth....
I'll play 79s on the button, but only for a single bet. You, quite rightly raised, and he shouldn't have (by our rules anyway) have been in the hand.
Once in, his momentum was the two clubs on the flop of course....
I know this is all obvious, but just wanted to share my sympathies with you on it - it's been that way for me last couple of days.
Wavey.
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